Vaccination & epidemic

[TheMercenary]

good one.

[Shawnee123]

[Undertoad]

[glatt]

I'm not sure what the point of me posting this is, other than it's another data point.

I just heard that one of my son's old pre-school friends has come down with a serious health problem. We haven't seen this kid since the summer, because now that they are both in 3rd grade, they go to different schools.

In December, this 9 year old boy had a minor cold with no fever, and went to the pediatricians office for a reason that's unknown to me. Maybe for the cold, maybe a wellness visit. While at the pediatricians, he was given the nasal flu vaccine. The nurses administering the vaccine knew he had a cold, but since he had no fever, they said that giving him the FluMist vaccine was fine. Beginning the next morning, and over the following 24 hours, his personality had completely changed. He couldn't find a pair of pants that he would wear, because they all felt funny on him. He said they were too loose, and that his skin was too loose to. He was crying in the corner and was almost inconsolable. His parent's finally found one pair of pants in the dirty hamper that he was willing to wear. He came home from school, that first day, and immediately stripped naked and hid in his room. Saying that he felt really weird and wanted to die it was so bad. The parents kept calling their pediatricians, and it sounds like they weren't very helpful. They finally were willing to make an appointment with the boy, but also suggested that the parents make a psych appointment too.

At the pediatricians office, about a week or so later, they had no idea what was wrong, and suggested the parents take him to a mental hospital and check him in there. Meanwhile, the parents had done some research and learned that there is a really rare condition where people who have a strep infection and get this vaccine can get really fucked up. So they asked for a strep test. The test came back positive, even though the kid had never had a fever. They were somehow able to determine that he had the strep infection back when he got the vaccine.

So they put him on an aggressive course of antibiotics, and things are improving slightly. He has stopped saying that he wants to die. But he still has all sorts of compulsive behavior, and he still strips off his clothes as soon as he gets home from school because they drive him nuts against his skin. He hides naked in his room.

The parents have been looking for a doctor who knows about this "PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Strep)" and is able to diagnose their son. The pediatricians they have been dealing with are clueless, and don't feel qualified to make any diagnosis. They found a doctor and have an appointment, but haven't been yet.

So there's no official diagnosis yet, but they know the boy's personality changed dramatically within a day or two of getting the FluMist vaccine while he was infected with strep. This used to be a normal kid. Even though they are just acquaintances now, these guys used to be good friends of ours, and this sucks for them.

[Clodfobble]

I'm so sorry, glatt. If they are unsatisfied with their new doctor, let me know. I know of several doctors who diagnose and treat PANDAS. Also, it would be good to mention to your friend that at this point it would save a lot of time and energy if the boy could get his tonsils taken out ASAP.

[TheMercenary]

glatt, maybe they could get him to a university setting for treatment. At least there will be people there who have heard of this syndrome.

I hate any of the nasal flu preps, they are live attenuated vaccines.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'm having trouble with the basic concept. If his body is fighting one bug, and you introduce a different bug, the immune system can't multitask? Does the immune system fight different bugs in different ways? Is it a change in body chemistry that makes the kid nuts?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I'm having trouble with the basic concept. If his body is fighting one bug, and you introduce a different bug, the immune system can't multitask?

It should.

Does the immune system fight different bugs in different ways?

Absolutely.

Is it a change in body chemistry that makes the kid nuts?

I have no idea in the case of this syndrome, this is the first I have ever heard of it.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by nimh

What is the mechanism behind this phenomenon? At present, it is unknown but researchers at the NIMH are pursuing a theory that the mechanism is similar to that of Rheumatic Fever, an autoimmune disorder triggered by strep. throat infections. In every bacterial infection, the body produces antibodies against the invading bacteria, and the antibodies help eliminate the bacteria from the body. However in Rheumatic Fever, the antibodies mistakenly recognize and "attack" the heart valves, joints, and/or certain parts of the brain. This phenomenon is called "molecular mimicry", which means that proteins on the cell wall of the strep. bacteria are similar in some way to the proteins of the heart valve, joints, or brain. Because the antibodies set off an immune reaction which damages those tissues, the child with Rheumatic Fever can get heart disease (especially mitral valve regurgitation), arthritis, and/or abnormal movements known as Sydenham’s Chorea or St. Vitus Dance.

Good luck with that, it would appear that flumist is not associated with this. This disease has a "sudden onset" nature, which naturally causes parents to look for something they did in the last 24 hours that caused it. But correlation does not imply causality and researchers believe that strep is the cause and not some vaccination for something unrelated. "Data points" also lead us to confirmation bias.

A Google search to correlate the terms PANDAS and FluMist only turns up one result, a thread of concerned parents trying to decide what to do.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I'm so sorry, glatt. If they are unsatisfied with their new doctor, let me know. I know of several doctors who diagnose and treat PANDAS. Also, it would be good to mention to your friend that at this point it would save a lot of time and energy if the boy could get his tonsils taken out ASAP.

Refresh my memory, what did the removal of tonsils do for your kid(s)? Did it help a lot?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I'm having trouble with the basic concept. If his body is fighting one bug, and you introduce a different bug, the immune system can't multitask? Does the immune system fight different bugs in different ways? Is it a change in body chemistry that makes the kid nuts?

It's not about the bug, it's about the adjuvants in the vaccine--the ingredients that deliberately throw your immune system into overdrive, to elicit the desired immune response to a bug that your body typically wouldn't bother with. The role of the tonsils in the body isn't exactly understood, though we know they produce antibodies in youth and generally stop by adulthood. Throw the tonsils into overdrive while there's also strep living in there, and the effect could in theory be an autoimmune disorder like PANDAS. The problem with the disorder is not actually the strep itself, but the antibodies the immune system is creating in reaction to the strep.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

A Google search to correlate the terms PANDAS and FluMist only turns up one result, a thread of concerned parents trying to decide what to do.

Your search was too narrow, as it's not the FluMist in particular but the nature of vaccines overall. Google search PANDAS caused by vaccine or vaccination and the results get much larger.

Originally Posted by glatt

Refresh my memory, what did the removal of tonsils do for your kid(s)? Did it help a lot?

Minifob was diagnosed with PANDAS (by an Ear-Nose-Throat specialist, not by our autism doctors, though it very often goes hand-in-hand with autism diagnoses, just like celiac, food allergies, and most other autoimmune diseases. Some cases of autism actually appear to be nothing but PANDAS to begin with, triggered at an early enough age to severely affect brain development.)

Once the disorder is triggered, it's going to be a lifelong condition to manage. Every single time the kid is exposed to strep, there will be neurological problems. The tonsils and adenoids are very, very susceptible to strep infections. If you remove them, the strep has nowhere to live except a thin sheen of skin on the surface of the back of the throat, which is easier to defeat (always with antibiotics, from now on.) Some hardier species of strep can also live in the intestines--but again, nothing nearly as vivacious as the kind of colony that can set up shop in the tonsils/adenoids without even trying. Removing them now will A.) get rid of the majority of the current infection in one fell swoop, and B.) make future infections less frequent, and less severe.

Edit to add: Also, as I learned last month, pink eye can be caused by a strep infection of the eye (though it can also be other bacteria too, like staph.)

We unfortunately ended up removing his adenoids and his tonsils in separate surgeries, but after both, he was a completely different kid. He regressed again after the adenoid surgery because a new round of strep infected his tonsils, and antibiotics were only minimally effective by then. After the tonsils came out, his teacher at school said "something just clicked," and he has had huge jumps in social, verbal, and cognitive skills. Of course, his rampant OCD symptoms have also disappeared.

Your friends should look into the book Saving Sammy, though they've probably heard of it already if they've gotten far enough in the process to locate a doctor who diagnoses and treats PANDAS. There's also a very active PANDAS Yahoo group.

[Undertoad]

PANDAS resource network FAQ:

Q:I'm concerned about vaccinations and whether they cause of PANDAS
A: The research at this point indicates that the disease is a response to Group A Beta-Hemolytic Streptococcus and not a result of vaccines.

Q:Will a vaccine trigger an exacerbation?
A: Possibly. The theory is that PANDAS children already have a weakened blood brain barrier and when a vaccine recruits T-cells, there is inflammation that can further breach the blood brain barrier. The vaccine acts like a mini version of the illness (bacterial or viral). While the immune system kills off the weakened bacteria/virus in the vaccine, the body still has an immune response and still produces localized inflammation allowing antibodies or B-cells to cross the blood-brain barrier. This is a very controversial area and talking with an immunologist with experience with MS, ARF or Sydenham Chorea is probably the best recommendation here.

Q: Does PANDAS cause permanent brain injury?
A: At present, it looks like exacerbations in PANDAS do not cause permanent harm to the brain. MRIs reveal no demyelization and while there are reports of enlargement of the basal ganglia (a part of the brain controlling fear, hunger, and motor skills), this seems to remit after treatment. We all certainly hope this is the case.

[Clodfobble]

Q:Will a vaccine trigger an exacerbation?
A: Possibly.

Just wanted to be clear here... you're cool with this assessment of the current research?

[Undertoad]

As long as you understand the difference between "cause" and "trigger".

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble, 05-18-2009

Yes, because I also think an honest examination would force them to conclude that the current vaccination schedule is too aggressive, and that certain specific vaccinations carry extra risks and should be performed with even more caution; and in the long term view, I think it would also open the research path of trying to identify those kids who are genetically at risk.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble, 05-19-2009

There are many factors involved, I absolutely agree. There is usually no one cause of autism even in a specific individual, let alone across all cases.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble, 5-21-2009

It is, in fact, demonstrably genetic. Siblings of autistic children have a 2-8% chance of being autistic, somewhere between 50 to 200 times the rate of the general population. But the debate rages over whether it is purely genetic, or whether it is the susceptibility which is genetic, and that without the environmental triggers it would remain dormant, so to speak. (As a comparison, diabetes is also known to be genetic, but the rate of diabetes is much higher today than it used to be because of environmental triggers setting off the disease, like poor diet and lack of exercise.) If one acknowledges that the actual rate of autism is rising, mathematically speaking they must acknowledge that there is an environmental factor, because there is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. This is why many institutions are desperate to prove there are not actually more cases of autism now than there used to be, because if there are, it means there's a cause.

That's just in the first four days of this thread. Do you really want me to systematically quote myself from the beginning? It is you who has consistently denied the possibility of a vaccine either triggering, or exacerbating, an existing predisposition or condition.