Egypt and Arab States circle toilet bowl

[Griff]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I heard a US military Brass chap talking about that.

To establish a no-fly zone, you send in your aircraft to shoot down their air craft.

For that, you need to destroy their air-defence system.

That involves dropping bombs.

That gets messy. Even the smartest bombs sometimes miss, or are poorly targeted.

I think TW has a point. Sometimes, freedom is expensive, and the price is human lives. The world can help, but the Libyans must bear the majority of the burden, else they will end up someone else's vassals. Freezing QGadddafffi's assests was good. If he can't pay his mercenaries, maybe they will go home or even change sides.

Is there some older SAM tech we can get to the rebels? <can of worms>

When this ends though we may be looking at a pretty screwed up place for a long time due to tribal breakdowns. I wonder how we could improve their communications most rapidly after Gaddafi gets ventilated?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

When this ends though we may be looking at a pretty screwed up place for a long time due to tribal breakdowns. I wonder how we could improve their communications most rapidly after Gaddafi gets ventilated?

An answer is found in the exact same concepts that define failing companies. Attitude and knowledge. Appreciate a great advantage that Egypt has. Most all junior officers in the Egyptian military were taught or at least introduced to American (western) concepts. That the army and government serve the poeple. That a country's fundamental strength comes from the masses they serve. That making war on the people is wrong and counterproductive. A concept that even America did not understand in the 1920s. Yes, these concepts are that new even in America.

As a result, now senior Egyptian officers understand concept on how governments and economics work. What is required from the powers that be. Concepts that Libyans have not been trained or even exposed to. In some venues, a benevoent leader or even a concept of term limits make no sense. In many venues, those who seek power therefore deserve to be the righteous leader.

It is not about the economy, intact towns, or wealth. It is about attitude and knowledge. The ability to learn. To understand what management's (government's) job is. Egypt hopefully will prosper from superior knowledge. Libya may suffer from a massive power vacuum because even the army was neither educated nor trained - except in 'ruthless power' concepts. In which case, an only solution would be massive deaths and civil war to fix a mess that Kaddafi has created.

All that suffering is irrelevant. Should be ignored in the press. All attention should be focused on what Libya is to become. And whether the 'powers that be' understand their purpose - which is not power. Massive deaths affecting every family is how those who would otherwise crave power, instead, start realizing why thinking like a moderate is necessary. Many times pain must be that massive to finally force logical thinking.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

That making war on the people is wrong and counterproductive. A concept that even America did not understand in the 1920s.

Wonder where he's getting this one? What does he think changed in the 1930s or thereabouts?

As for whether power-seekers are inherently so very deserving of power, that is very much open to question, likely in every case without exception.

[Cloud]

Quaddafi the fashionista. I found this quite amazing and funny.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...200908#slide=1

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Griff

Is there some older SAM tech we can get to the rebels that they can use on us in the future?

FTFY

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Griff:
Is there some older SAM tech we can get to the rebels that they can use on us in the future?

FTFY

I don't think you did fix it for him -- I don't recollect any SAM tech we shipped to Afghanistan ever amounted to enough of a threat to U.S. arms to shoot down one fixed-wing aircraft, and maybe what, two helos? Over ten years? We are crashing more of them just out of weather and williwaws. The Afghan mountains can be a graveyard of airframes too.

You just don't want our side to win, Spexx. Such desire, manifested, would strain your relationship with your friends, I suppose.

You should pick friends who are not Fascist sympathizers, and scourge Fascist sympathies from your heart as well. Then you will be a man in full, instead of a cripple lacking any democratic values. I am what democratic values sound like when they are in full cry. Those who believe otherwise of me cannot support their beliefs with facts. No, none of you can -- you have only lies and misunderstandings (not necessarily your own) and shrunken, totalitarian, unfree values -- more correctly called antivalues.

[Griff]

While we're watching Japan, the Saudis send troops into Bahrain.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

While we're watching Japan, the Saudis send troops into Bahrain.

That had happened many days before the Japanese quake. Days later, other gulf state nations followed up with more troops. I don't understand why the NY Times is reporting this as if it were the first Saudi deployment.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Griff

Is there some older SAM tech we can get to the rebels? <can of worms>

When this ends though we may be looking at a pretty screwed up place for a long time due to tribal breakdowns. I wonder how we could improve their communications most rapidly after Gaddafi gets ventilated?

I think after they gave Stingers to the Afgans in the 80's they learned their lesson.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

When it comes to the always-desirable business of getting tyrants and undemocrats out of business, some Congresscritters remain a waste both of space and of carbon-14 uptake.

So make that fourteen trillion and one reasons, taking all this lot collectively, for why I don't vote Democratic. These several bozos think there's something else more important to do -- or perhaps that it is better done with plenty of less-than-democracies around.

I have no idea what they are thinking. I am very glad I do not share in it.

[Happy Monkey]

Don't vote Republican either, then.

[Happy Monkey]

Amusingly, some of the first comments in UG's article are asking why Obama gets a pass from the left on starting foreign wars. Apparently they got those early posts by skipping not only the article, but also the headline.

[classicman]

What makes it even more amusing is that Politico is typically a left leaning news source.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I frequently vote Libertarian also, HM. Do you do the same? Don't recall you having done so and bragged about it...

But the Donkey Party is just plain too fucking bone-stupid for me ever to support.

The Republicans, by generations-long contrast, at least think wars, if engaged in, should be won. The Dems can't even muster up that -- viz., Mr. Obama, the Waffler-In-Chief. It was obvious to me I should vote against both him and his Party. I wish to heaven it were obvious to you, but some people just haven't got any valuable values, do they?

[ZenGum]

IN more interesting news, in Yemen, several senior military figures including a general, have publicly announced they are "joining the youth revolution". They forgot to add ",man!".

That is the crucial factor by which revolutions fail or win.
However Yemen is an unstable coalition of tribes and modernish cityfolk, lord knows how it could end up.