The right way to stop a bully

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by lookout123

OK, I spent the whole weekend punching a clown. I figured that would give you enough time to answer Pete Zicato's question. How you coming on that? In case you forgot I'll repost his question.

This is how that works: I post a specific, and you strawman argue it to death. I'm not going there. Like UT, I tire of this.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Now on a more serious note Spexx I think you misunderstand the motivation behind the thread and some of the comments. I don't take any pleasure in someone's pain. I very much support and give a huge shout out to anyone who finally realizes they don't have to take that shit or live in fear. In this case I recognize and am pleased for the boy who has decided enough is enough and chooses to stop being a victim. I also support life lessons that can benefit all involved at a young age. In this case the former victim learned a lesson but hopefully the bully did as well. Hopefully he will realize that other people aren't there to make him feel like billy bigboots. Hopefully in the future he will choose not to pick on others he perceives to be weaker than himself.

Sometimes lessons are painful but the pain involved is not the source of enjoyment but merely a catalyst for change.

Timothy McVeigh felt that the incidences at Ruby Ridge and Whitby Island were the US government bullying him and his kind. So he retaliated using violence, and blew up the Murrah Building. Osama Bin Laden felt that the US was bullying Muslims, so he arranged to have some jets flown into some buildings on American soil.

You can behave like McVeigh or Bin Laden. I will behave like Gandhi or MLK.

Yes, Flint, this is hyperbole. Sometimes hyperbole is useful in getting a point across.

[Clodfobble]

Another way to look at it is this: if the video had instead shown the little kid punching the victim, and then a hall monitor marches up, grabs the bully by the scruff of the neck, and paddles him soundly but calmly before sending him to detention, most people's reaction would be different. We might nod in satisfaction, or even smirk, but no one would be particularly cheering. Because we're not celebrating the fact that the bully was injured, or even humiliated--we're celebrating the victim overcoming his fear, and becoming a more confident person. It's joy for the victim, not vengefulness against the bully.

Another important thing to note is that if (in some magical fairy tale land) this school actually were to enact corporal punishment, it still wouldn't be as effective as this one small display you see in the video. The bully very well might redouble his torture of the victim after being paddled by a hall monitor, because that's how power hierarchies work: you can't retaliate against the power above you, so you take it out on those below you. It's the reason why kids who are beaten at home often become bullies in the first place. The lesson that the bully is not above this kid at school, and that any other supposedly weak kid might punch back at any given time, you never know--that's a far stronger lesson than "the hall monitor might punish me... so I'd better not get caught."

[jimhelm]

after someone punched you in the face twice, you would let him hit you a third time? really?

[monster]

No, I wouldn't.

Spexx you are avoiding the issue. What would you see instead? What do you think the big kid should have done? He ignored it the first time. And the second. It didn't get him very far, did it?

And yes, there is a difference. This victim's behaviour is instant retaliation/response, no premeditation. If he had waited until the next day to attack the little squirt, that would be an entirely different scenario. Like McVeigh and Bin Laden.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by jimhelm

after someone punched you in the face twice, you would let him hit you a third time? really?

I know you're talking to Spexx, but to answer for myself... I certainly wouldn't now. But I did as a kid. A third time and many more after that. And nothing ever improved, even after the school intervened on behalf of me and several other students she was going after. I wish to God someone had just taken me aside and said, "Punch her in the face. Just one time, as hard as you can, square in the middle. You will get in a little bit of trouble, and you will have to accept that, but it will make her stop, and you know that's more important than any punishment the school will hand out to you." And I have every intention of saying something similar to my children when the time comes.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

This is how that works: I post a specific, and you strawman argue it to death. I'm not going there. Like UT, I tire of this.



Timothy McVeigh felt that the incidences at Ruby Ridge and Whitby Island were the US government bullying him and his kind. So he retaliated using violence, and blew up the Murrah Building. Osama Bin Laden felt that the US was bullying Muslims, so he arranged to have some jets flown into some buildings on American soil.

You can behave like McVeigh or Bin Laden. I will behave like Gandhi or MLK.

Yes, Flint, this is hyperbole. Sometimes hyperbole is useful in getting a point across.

I'm fairly certain that McVeigh didn't come running out of his house after seeing the news coverage of Ruby Ridge or Whitby Island and take the fight to the government. Rather, he hid in a basement, hatched a plot, bought supplies, and then murdered innocent people completely unattached to either grievance.

Good old Osama tried to blow up a building to make a political statement. Not the White House, Capitol Building or Supreme Court, not even a military base, instead he tried to blow up a commercial building filled with an international hodgepodge of people. That didn't work so years later he came back with planes. Statement made. "Fuck you America"

Neither situation even remotely correlates with a kid standing still and taking punches and then deciding he'd had enough before immediately repulsing the attack, downing his attacker, ensuring he wouldn't be attacked again, and walking away

I have great respect for Ghandi and MLK, and I respect your right to behave in that manner when you are presented with the opportunity. It might be important to remember though that if we all felt and behaved as you suggest we would all be at the mercy of the thugs and bullies because no one would be there to slap them down.

[piercehawkeye45]

MLK and Gandhi were able to use non-violent protests to bring social change upon their society but these protest movements are only successful under certain conditions. If a non-violent movement against Hitler started in the late 1930's (or any brutal dictator for that matter) I really doubt they would have have enjoyed the same amount of success.

Dealing with bullies works in a similar fashion. Using non-violent methods will work under certain conditions but will fail in others. If talking to teachers and parents have not stopped the bullying, sometimes a fight in the next best option.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Dealing with bullies works in a similar fashion. Using non-violent methods will work under certain conditions but will fail in others. If talking to teachers and parents have not stopped the bullying, sometimes a fight in the next best option.

I agree. We don't know what steps were taken before this clip.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I agree. We don't know what steps were taken before this clip.

Then I imagine you're actually in agreement with most people here. Earlier you said "conflicts should be resolved without violence" and "mature adults don't condone that behavior," neither of which implies room for a last-resort option of fighting.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I know you're talking to Spexx, but to answer for myself... I certainly wouldn't now. But I did as a kid. A third time and many more after that. And nothing ever improved, even after the school intervened on behalf of me and several other students she was going after. I wish to God someone had just taken me aside and said, "Punch her in the face. Just one time, as hard as you can, square in the middle. You will get in a little bit of trouble, and you will have to accept that, but it will make her stop, and you know that's more important than any punishment the school will hand out to you." And I have every intention of saying something similar to my children when the time comes.

This is why when mrs. foot tells the kids "we don't hit" I take them aside and say "yes we do, and here's how to throw a punch and here's where to hit them. but we don't usually hit first."

[jimhelm]

It's really hard to say what you might do in that kid's position. The adrenaline that hits you might well change your opinion, spexx. Intellectually, it's correct and easy to say that violence is never the answer. And then someone hits you in the mouth.

It's a unique scenario. He's clearly much larger than his tormentor, and stronger. You usually don't see this played out this way. Also, the way the smaller kid was behaving made me think that he had been doing this for a while. I don't think it was the first time he had picked on the larger kid. He had become bold, it would seem. And the big kid finally had enough.

I had a smaller kid (my best childhood friend) hit me in the face once. He got scared and ran away as soon as he did it, and stayed out of reach long enough to let me cool down and apologize over and over. I never hit him back. Had he stood there and tried to give me 3, I am pretty certain I would have acted similarly to the way that this kid did.... actually, I started toward Dan after the first shot....

[classicman]

Australian School 'Bully' -- I'm Not Sorry!




I keep coming back to the same questions ... Why was this on video?
Did anyone ask the person who shot it?
It seemed premeditated to me.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I agree that conflicts should be resolved without violence. I am not a barbarian.

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

But mature adults don't condone that behavior.

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I will behave like Gandhi or MLK.

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

The big kid should have pulled out his piece and shot the little fucker in the head.

[skysidhe]

Sometime's I think he just says something weird to get a reaction. Fishing. That's my take on it. For whatever reason, there is a lack of subtly to be sure.

[Spexxvet]

You show an amazing lack of understanding sarcasm.