Dweller NSFW 2011

[Tulip]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Well Tulip, I'm sorry for being "pushy" with you. I guess I was testy because I thought you had chased anonymoo away and you weren't posting any of your own. I was just taking shit out on you (wrongfully so). I respect your choice not to post here. Many can't because of the social situation or are afraid of rejection. I know this was the case after I posted on here and it left me feeling awkward or inadequete afterwards.

I didn't even realized you were upset with me. I thought you just really wanted to see a sexy picture from a lady. I don't recall seeing your picture in the dnsfw thread, perhaps I wasn't around then. I'm sorry that it had made you felt bad though. Had I been around, and vocal like these days, I would've given you a compliment. I promise I won't chase away anymore members who post in here, well, at least not intentionally.

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by anonymoo

...& I swear to God I am a female

[DanaC]

Christ on a bike, what i wouldn't give to have an arse like that!

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Ibram

as for the rest of you, i am completely fucking appalled at you, too. most of you, at least. for a bunch of supposedly enlightened, smart, tolerant people, the way you treated the anonymous poster who you all accused of being a "man" is disgusting.

OK. I wouldn't say anything but you're talking about the community I love. So here's the deal.

Five different people speculated it was you.

You posted nothing. Repeatedly.

Anonymous posted in response that "what happened to this place? it used to be so supportive and nice and kind. now it's just... mean."

Now in the first post you post since all this speculation, you are unhappy that the image had male/female speculators, but once again fail to mention the Ibby/not Ibby speculators; and your conclusion is, like Anonymous, that the Cellar is no longer supportive and nice and kind.

See, if it was you, and please! surely it was, then for you to say "I'm appalled you think it was a man!!" is either game-playing of the highest order, or a delusional take on self, gender, and the real world.

More than anything, what is needed everywhere is complete honesty and yes, an acceptance of others' values. But start with yourself, not everybody else, because that's easier.

[Ibby]

No, it wasn't me. I don't have any panties that make my ass look that good. I was actually mostly just flattered that people thought i could pass that well, even if they were busy saying that "i" wasn't passing. I didn't reply sooner because I haven't been BACK to the cellar since this went down. But - and maybe i'm hypersensitive, compared to all you old farts, or maybe my pinko commie hippy school is to blame - as an LGBT youth, i find the tone and tenor of the way this forum treats gender and trans*, genderfluid, non-binary, and otherwise queer folks to be utterly offensive. Speculating on someone's sex, when they clearly identify as female, is, yes, offensive. Inherently and inevitably. I have been struggling with my own gender identity lately, and i'm increasingly sure i'm at least not a cis male, and i know for sure, if i were to post a picture of myself as a female, the MOST offensive and hurtful thing for all the initial responses to be would be "no thats a man." The problem isn't necessarily ill-will - it's much more likely sheer ignorance. I should go find some queer, trans*-friendly info to post for you. Someone's gender identity is not yours or anyone else's to police. If a male-bodied person identifies as a woman, to treat them otherwise, or even to speculate out loud, is INHERENTLY offensive. Joking in thread after thread about women actually being men is INHERENTLY offensive. I'm not appalled that anyone thought the anonymous poster was a man. I'm appalled that people thought it was their business to decide for the person in question what their gender was or seemed.


Trans* erasure, binarism, and transphobia are offensive and bigoted, not just to me but to the entire LGBT community.



and Dana: Thank you for saying "you are a good example of someone who is going to be beautiful when they dress feminine and handsome when they dress masculine." I keep myself up some nights wishing i could pass better, wishing i could look like the anonymous poster, struggling with my lumpy, ugly, butch man-body, but hearing things like that helps. Thank you.

[lookout123]

Maybe we should have a single "Dwellars' Coming of Age Angst" forum for stuff like this. This thread is for the bits and pieces... Let's get back on track.

[DanaC]

Bear in mind Ibby, there is also probably an element of not wanting to be 'tricked' by someone. That is to say, someone posting themselves as one thing, and then having got the response for that, outing themselves as the other with a big guffaw at those who were fooled. Less about what the other person is identifying themselves as so much as not wanting to be the butt of someone's deliberate fooling.

Not suggesting for one moment that that was what was happening, but just as posting pics of oneself is putting it out there...so is responding with arousal. I imagine a lot of people would feel slightly edgy about expressing desire if they even half suspected that said desire was then going to be flung back at them as the basis for jokes and/or insults. Our bodies are very personal, but so are our desires, and therefore both are likely to be wrapped up with certain sensitivities.

Just as we should respect and understand other people's own reading of their sexuality and gender identity, we should also spare a little understanding for the knotty issues around sexual desire and how problematic public expressions of those can be for some people.

And the last thing I think of when I think of you is 'butch'. You are a wonderfully elegant looking lad. Personally I have always rather liked androgynous looks. Maybe because I tend that way myself. I like it in gals and guys.

Funnily enough I thought about you whilst i was watching Christopher and his Kind on tv the other week. There was a description of 'boys' as being very beautiful. Put me in mind of you.

[Ibby]

welcome to exactly what i mean. standing up against offensive, bigoted posting is dismissed as coming of age angst. welcome to the new face of the cellar.

[DanaC]

That's not the new face of the cellar. The cellar has and always will be (I hope) made up of many faces.

Also, the LGBT territory is a strange and unusual one for most people. Treading in it at all can be dicey. Comments not intended to be offensive can easily become so. The 'rules' shift and are rarely consistent. I recently had a conversation with a very good friend of mine about the use of the term 'transgender', which she hates, but which is in common currency. Different people find different things offensive. That goes for whatever sexual identity. I would posit that the Cellar's response to Brian's recent announcement of his new identity as Pamela is just as typical.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Maybe we should have a single "Dwellars' Coming of Age Angst" forum for stuff like this. This thread is for the bits and pieces... Let's get back on track.

At least Ibram isn't something horrid like a grammar Nazi, he's just an LBGT Nazi (petite Nazi) and not the first one to pass through here. Let him post wherever an audience has gathered over relevant matters, his message has good intentions behind it.

[Nirvana]

"If a male-bodied person identifies as a woman, to treat them otherwise, or even to speculate out loud, is INHERENTLY offensive. "

I agree with DanaC having had transgendered people that worked for me at one time these particular 'men turned ladies' enjoyed outing themselves. While that may not be your feelings or the other anonymous posters on this thread's feelings, I don't think that most meant any of their comments as malicious. Just curiosity...

[lookout123]

Ibram is just like anyone else, he can post whatever he wants. He's looking for ways to be offended. That's just the nature of the very young and he is particularly sensitive as he is dealing with his issues. My point was simply that the NSFW picture thread might not be the best place for it. That certainly doesn't mean he can't continue to post anything he wants, but it generally doesn't fit with the theme of the thread as we've seen it over the years.

[DanaC]

Just to reiterate as well, regarding the less understanding comments:

They probably had less to do with views of that person's gender identity so much as our own fears of being made to look the fool. Of being the one who didn't spot the trick. Of being the one who thought they knew what was going on only to then discover they didn't. This is a public message board: if one is made a fool of here, it is potentially a public humiliation.

As I said: posting pics of oneself is putting it out there; but expressing desire is also something that puts one out there and makes one vulnerable.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Bear in mind Ibby, there is also probably an element of not wanting to be 'tricked' by someone. That is to say, someone posting themselves as one thing, and then having got the response for that, outing themselves as the other with a big guffaw at those who were fooled. Less about what the other person is identifying themselves as so much as not wanting to be the butt of someone's deliberate fooling.

Not suggesting for one moment that that was what was happening, but just as posting pics of oneself is putting it out there...so is responding with arousal. I imagine a lot of people would feel slightly edgy about expressing desire if they even half suspected that said desire was then going to be flung back at them as the basis for jokes and/or insults. Our bodies are very personal, but so are our desires, and therefore both are likely to be wrapped up with certain sensitivities.

Just as we should respect and understand other people's own reading of their sexuality and gender identity, we should also spare a little understanding for the knotty issues around sexual desire and how problematic public expressions of those can be for some people.

And the last thing I think of when I think of you is 'butch'. You are a wonderfully elegant looking lad. Personally I have always rather liked androgynous looks. Maybe because I tend that way myself. I like it in gals and guys.

Funnily enough I thought about you whilst i was watching Christopher and his Kind on tv the other week. There was a description of 'boys' as being very beautiful. Put me in mind of you.

Well stated. Thanks Dana.

[Aliantha]

You fellas better hurry up and make some more comments about anonymoo or 'they're' going to be offended. lol