Hand wringing about Jill leaving.

[Undertoad]

There's a display mode for you (upper right, Display Modes, Threaded Mode), but it doesn't really work because Quick Reply doesn't count in Threading.

Massive alteration of vBulletin is not going to happen.

[Nirvana]

How do you know whether or not you want to see someone's comments or not, until you have seen them?

Doesn't the ignore feature take care of this problem?

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Flint

Whether "the so-called debate in politics" has the qualities you say it has is neither known about nor cared about by me; therefore I can form no such analogues as you propose. I'll take your word for it, but to my knowledge it has nothing to do with me.

So. You are, by your own admission relatively ignorant of what occurs in the politics forum and therefore much of the context of the problem we're discussing. Yet, you feel perfectly well-qualified to tell those of us who are familiar with that context and have concerns, that said concerns are petty and groundless.

You are upset/annoyed by my 'attack' on you, which is primarily about your post and not you as a person, yet you think people who've been subjected to highly personal attacks in the politics forum should just grow up and be less sensitive.

If those two quotes above are enough to upset you, then it is probably a very good thing that you don't follow the politics forum more closely.


[eta] For the record, as soon as you said you'd unwittingly wandered into that discussion and made a random comment to a random poster, I accepted that. And throughout I have been clear that yours was not the post that caused the problems but rather the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. In other words a relatively innocuous and light example of something bigger that came just after the real problem.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

How do you know whether or not you want to see someone's comments or not, until you have seen them?

Doesn't the ignore feature take care of this problem?

That is where DanaC's yellow/red card theory could be more effective. The poster gets temporarily locked out of politics after so many fouls so the reader can be reasonably assured that there will be a discussion.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

There's a display mode for you (upper right, Display Modes, Threaded Mode), but it doesn't really work because Quick Reply doesn't count in Threading.

Massive alteration of vBulletin is not going to happen.

accent on "wish"


I did not intentionally suggest a massive rewrite of vBulletin.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

How do you know whether or not you want to see someone's comments or not, until you have seen them?

Doesn't the ignore feature take care of this problem?

Hi Nirvana--

In my fantasy rewrite of vBulletin, I was thinking I could see the post to begin with. This is ... you got to start with it showing or not... I pick showing. I could see the post, and if it was crap, just collapse it so the visual flow of the conversation didn't include that one.

the Ignore feature as it is now works great, but for a given poster *everywhere* on the cellar. When I'm UP TO HERE!!!11 with a given poster, I put them on ignore and my blood pressure is reduced. This functionality doesn't apply the way I want it... I just want selective comments removed from the conversation, not whole dwellars.

[Undertoad]

There is in fact a "red card yellow card" system built in to vBulletin, and a user getting infractions can be automatically penalized into a different user group or banned entirely.

The problem is that such a system changes, and complicates, the dynamic of the forum.

Many forums offer reward systems, in the forum of up or down votes. People at such places are not honestly themselves, but are competing to win ups or downs. Circlejerks reinforce themselves with upvotes. Hive minds develop. Some are ostracized with downvotes.

Imagine the internal politics that could develop. Imagine a Cellar Red Card Bannination Crew, working in consort. We'd have discussions breaking down into which user got close to making a heretical statement, and what penance they should offer to make things right. It'd be uglier than it is now.

[BigV]

How do you, UT, handle unwanted and irrelevant intrusions into your attention now, in real life?

[Undertoad]

Earplugs.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

There is in fact a "red card yellow card" system built in to vBulletin, and a user getting infractions can be automatically penalized into a different user group or banned entirely.

The problem is that such a system changes, and complicates, the dynamic of the forum.

Many forums offer reward systems, in the forum of up or down votes. People at such places are not honestly themselves, but are competing to win ups or downs. Circlejerks reinforce themselves with upvotes. Hive minds develop. Some are ostracized with downvotes.

Imagine the internal politics that could develop. Imagine a Cellar Red Card Bannination Crew, working in consort. We'd have discussions breaking down into which user got close to making a heretical statement, and what penance they should offer to make things right. It'd be uglier than it is now.

Good points. What if the call were only made by a mod?

[Undertoad]

I don't think there are enough mods to manage it.

[footfootfoot]

hahahahaha. sad, but true. sad, but funny, and true.

Actually very funny

[lookout123]

I don't think anything structural needs to change in the cellar. The beauty of the cellar is that it is a self policing community. I've been to other communities that are heavily moderated and regulated and they suck. Personally I don't like some of the changes I've seen in the culture of the cellar in the last few years. I have the ability to either whine about it (which I have), try to be a catalyst for what I'd like to see (I'm not so good at that), or leave (which I've done for months at a time). That's self regulation and it works. While I have zero respect for a couple of dwellars I dont' want some system in place where we vote their comments in or out of the threads. They're free to be assholes and I'm free to respond how I see fit.

For me I think the cellar is just a sympton of a much larger problem in our society. This is a reflection of discourse in the world now. Ideas are really not that important anymore except as a banner to wave pretentiously in support of our political/social identity. The right believes they are superior to the left because they're "more patriotic and american", "stand for values", and are obviously much more intelligent. The left believes they are superior to the right "because they care about the middle class", "believe in compassion", and are obviously much more intelligent.

It seems most people refuse to consider that two people can look at the exact same data and come to drastically different conclusions not because one is brilliant, kind, and pretty while the other is stupid, evil, and smelly. We have all experienced life differently and because of that have different priorities and different views of what the ideal society would be.

Of course those we have voted to rule our lives benefit by keeping us divided so they stir the pot with rhetoric to keep us battling right v left, rich v poor, black v white, red state v blue state. No one wins except the ruling class.

[Fair&Balanced]

Lookout, sorry, but I disagree. I think that is an easy way out of addressing the problem.

My disagreement is the manner in which people "discuss" their differences.

I have had brief, but interesting discussions with Flint and Classicman in which we disagreed, but we were respectful.

That is not the case with one member here. One who, in my experience, is always the first to start with the name-calling (pussy, asshole, loser,...), who arrogantly refuses to provide facts to support his position when requested but instead demands that others prove him wrong and who broadly categorizes anything he doesnt agree with as biased or propaganda (including facts like text of laws).

If you think the discussions could be better, my suggestion is to start with the biggest deterrent.

I get that he is a "valued" member of the community. If the community wants to skirt around it and doesnt want to address, then so be it.

If that is the case, its no big deal. Those who want a more civil and respectful discussion of political issues will find it elsewhere.

added:
And, yes, I am guilty of responding in less than the most respectful manners at times, but I would urge you to look at the discussions in the totality.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

That is not the case with one member here. One who, in my experience, is always the first to start with the name-calling (pussy, asshole, loser,...), who arrogantly refuses to provide facts to support his position when requested but instead demands that others prove him wrong and who broadly categorizes anything he doesnt agree with as biased or propaganda (including facts like text of laws).

Yebbut, to be fair, zengum was high on crack when he posted that stuff. And his hobo just died.