Guns don't kill people ....

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

Speaking of which -- what are you going to do about those termites?

You are one funny guy

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Ibram

I would never use a weapon to defend myself, or conceal carry it, even in Vermont, the holy grail of gun rights or something like that.

I encourage anyone who is not legally prohibited from owning firearms to get one. But ... if you have no willingness to defend yourself, and feel no need to ... why would you buy a pistol? Yeah, target shooting is a heck of a lot of fun, but you can fulfill that particular need by throwing darts or getting a bow.

Oh, and Vermont is a safer state because of the no-paper carry laws and responsible gun ownership.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by wolf

But ... if you have no willingness to defend yourself, and feel no need to ... why would you buy a pistol?

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

Ibram: what WILL you do with your AK-47, then?

I really, really enjoy firing guns. Target shooting is just really fun! I doubt I would even hunt with it, I'm not really into killing animals either. It's... not the same as archery or darts.

[wolf]

An assault weapon is one which you use to beat someone.

[Ibby]

Hence the scare quotes, since I couldn't be bothered to figure out what to call an assault rifle.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by wolf

Oh, and Vermont is a safer state because of the no-paper carry laws and responsible gun ownership.

Do you have any evidence of that?

[Lamplighter]

Vermont is hardly a model for other states to follow

Vermont State Law Summary
Last updated February 2, 2012

Vermont does not:

• Require a background check prior to the transfer of a firearm between private parties;
• Prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, or large capacity ammunition magazines;
• Require firearms dealers or purchasers to obtain a state license;
• Require the reporting of mental health commitments or adjudications for firearm purchaser background checks;
• Limit the number of firearms that may be purchased at one time;
• Impose a waiting period on firearm purchases;
• Regulate unsafe handguns (“junk guns” or “Saturday night specials”);
• Allow local governments to regulate firearms; or
• Require any permit or license for the carrying of concealed firearms.

In 2009, Vermont had the 16th lowest number of gun deaths per capita among the states.
Yet even this relatively low ranking means that, in that year, 60 people died
from firearm-related injuries in Vermont.

In addition, based on data published by Mayors Against Illegal Guns,
Vermont had the 16th highest rate of crime gun exports among the states in 2009–
meaning that crime guns originally sold in Vermont were recovered after being used in crimes
in other states at the 16th highest rate among the states.




VTdigger.org
Kate Robinson
3/27/12

Gun safety law is in limbo, despite recent teen suicides
by Kate Robinson
March 4, 2011

[dmg1969]

I fully agree with what wolf said. If you are not willing to take someone's life when yours is threatened, you should not have a gun for self defense. Hesitation will cause it to be taken from you and used against you.

The only problem with a knife or other "short" object for self defense is that you have to get get close enough to the threat that your weapon can be removed from you or they can hurt you with their weapon (knife, club, etc.).

If you are dead set (no pun) against (or unable to own) a gun, I would recommend a POLICE strength pepper spray in a cone fog. Fox Labs makes a good one that I keep by the bed. One blast of that and the person should be out of commission for a short time so you can escape and call the police. Also, a weapon with a little longer reach like a baseball bat or golf club. This is all assuming the other party does not have a gun. You know the joke about bringing a knife to a gunfight....

[wolf]

Pretty common anti-gun rhetoric there ...

• Require a background check prior to the transfer of a firearm between private parties;

Most states operate the same way for long arms (rifles and shotguns). On a quick search I have been unable to locate the specific statute addressing this for Vermont. It is, however, illegal in all states to knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who is legally not allowed to possess one, or to a person whom you know intends to commit a crime.

• Prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, or large capacity ammunition magazines;

As stated previously, an "assault weapon" is one you hit someone with. Most cap and ball weapons as .50 caliber or more. A shorter magazine makes things more dangerous rather than safer for self defense ... you have to reload more often.

• Require firearms dealers or purchasers to obtain a state license;

Again, most states don't. Firearms dealers are Federally licensed and have to comply with Federal Law with respect to record keeping, background checks, and sales records.

• Require the reporting of mental health commitments or adjudications for firearm purchaser background checks;

It's on the federal form. This is usually pushed forth as an issue because crazy people are perceived as scarier and more violent than "normal" people. They aren't.

• Limit the number of firearms that may be purchased at one time;

Most places don't. It's a commercial transaction. I can buy as many boxes of ceral at one time as I want.

• Impose a waiting period on firearm purchases;

Most states either don't have or have dropped waiting periods. In the face of an imminent threat or natural disaster, or unnatural one (riots), you're screwed rather than benefitted by this law. Sometimes it's called a "cooling off" period. Think about it. If you're pissed off enough to want to kill someone, will you really be that much calmer three to five days from now?

• Regulate unsafe handguns (“junk guns” or “Saturday night specials”)

They aren't "unsafe." They are inexpensive. They do exactly what they are made to do. You pull the trigger and it goes bang. "Saturday Night Special" is a name given to these sorts of weapons when in the 1800s they were banned to prevent blacks from owning firearms.

• Allow local governments to regulate firearms;

Local governments can't enact a law that contradicts state law. That applies to ALL laws, not just firearms law.

• Require any permit or license for the carrying of concealed firearms.

Yay for them." Vermont Carry" is much desired in the pro-gun lexicon. Alaska has it too. No wild west gunfights. How about that? The move, incidentally, is to refer to it as "Constitutional Carry."

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Do you have any evidence of that?

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/bo...bo6686900.html

[Ibby]

I'm not convinced that gun ownership specifically causes lower crime in Vermont. In fact I would argue that the high popularity of hunting causes unnecessary accidental firearms injury or death... but that's irrelevant to gun control issues specifically I think. I think that there is a correlation between the high gun ownership and the culture of vermont, which is what more broadly contributes to the very low violent crime rates in the state. Much more important is the fact that the rural communities that make up most of vermont's population are so small that everyone knows everyone, and so violent crime is almost only committed between people who know eachother - where tighter gun control wouldn't help. Vermont is a state with perfect conditions for Vermont Carry to be safe. I wouldn't support Vermont Carry in, say, Maryland, or New Jersey, or any other densely-populated state, or any big, crime-ridden city, to be honest.

[Lamplighter]

Firearm deaths appear to be more closely related to whether
the state's voted-share was for McCain (high) or Obama (low)

The Atlantic
By Richard Florida
Jan 13 2011

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Ibram

I think that there is a correlation between the high gun ownership and the culture of vermont, which is what more broadly contributes to the very low violent crime rates in the state. Much more important is the fact that the rural communities that make up most of vermont's population are so small that everyone knows everyone, and so violent crime is almost only committed between people who know eachother - where tighter gun control wouldn't help. Vermont is a state with perfect conditions for Vermont Carry to be safe. I wouldn't support Vermont Carry in, say, Maryland, or New Jersey, or any other densely-populated state, or any big, crime-ridden city, to be honest.

Agree completely. I don't think guns cause or reduce violent crime, but depends on the culture. Cultures were guns are used as a method of attaining and holding power will tend to lead to more gun deaths. Cultures were guns are respected will tend to reduce them.

[footfootfoot]

Here is a pdf from CDC showing the top 15 causes of death in the US over several years broken down into excruciating detail.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...09_release.pdf

One thing is pretty clear, people die from firearm related injuries. But not that many as compared to the other forms of death

Assault (homicide) with a firearm counts for just under 11,500 deaths in 2009.

Intentional self harm (Suicide) by firearm about 18,700 (I would leave this out as a determined suicide will find other means.)

Aortic Dissection claimed about 10,500 in 2009.

For comparison's sake Aortic dissection is described as

Originally Posted by http://www.iradonline.org/about.html

... a rare but serious condition that mostly occurs in men aged 60 to 80.

I am finding it very hard to think of guns, as they exist in this country, as being particularly lethal to the population.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

One thing is pretty clear, people die from firearm related injuries. But not that many as compared to the other forms of death


I am finding it very hard to think of guns, as they exist in this country, as being particularly lethal to the population.

So, if firearms aren't a huge problem, why do people want a firearm to protect themselves from being shot to death?