Be a person...

[jeni]

I notice this, too.

For example, an earlier IotD featured a political cartoon depicting a young male "shooting up" the latest trends.

Maggie ever-so-condescendingly states that "I bet he's the best in his high school."

Give me a break. Sure, the cartoonist didn't do a WONDERFUL job drawing, and it wasn't a WONDERFUL cartoon. Possibly, this cartoon didn't showcase the artists ideas or drawings to the best of his or her ability. But it is absolutely not necessary to make a crack about age in said situation.

[jennofay]

My credulity is a *bit* strained to imagine a 16-yo feeding himself on a regular basis by selling Linux boxen to local businesses, but that's not the first time that's happened.

might be difficult to believe, but i do believe that it is possible. i supported myself on a pizza hut salary (not much money... ) from when i was 15. granted, i had a little help from my parents...until i was about 16 ... when they decided that if i had a job i could pay for my own clothes, food, etc.etc.etc... so, i dont doubt that he could be doing this.

Jag's age isn't germane except when he offers opinions about stuff he has little experience with--like firearms ownership, or the morality of engaging in business--then insists they be given equal weight with the views of people who have been around those blocks a few times.

its unfair to give unequal weight to someones opinion because, as you said, you have 'been around those blocks a few times.' perhaps because you are older, you might have some more experience, seasoned views, etc towards certain topics, but everyone is different, with different opinions, and those opinions are ALL important. equally. thats what makes us work as a community. notice that none of this started until it was brought to the attention of the masses that others opinions were being unfairly tossed aside. if you didnt know how old jag was, if you were to assume that he was thirty-something, worked in an office 9-5, had a wife and kids, and still held those opinions, would they still hold less weight (in your mind) than your own? of course not.

the big problem to me is age discrimination. i have dealt with it for as long as i can remember. you may sit there and think that i am a naive 19-year old, that is your opinion. i am tired of people putting labels on others because they are younger. i was the assistant manager at the afore-mentioned restaurant, and was therefore the "boss" of many people older than me, including dham and jeni. at first no one took me seriously, because of my age (i started managing shortly after i turned 17). it took everyone some time, but eventually they all realized that just because i was younger in age didnt mean that i was just a joke. i had ideas and opinions, and good ones at that. i was completely capable of dealing with "real world" problems. thats all im trying to say. just dont look at people who are physically younger and cut them and their ideas/opinions/views down simply because of age. you may have been 'around those blocks a few times' more than us, but maybe there are some blocks weve visited that you havent. and thats what makes us all different. and all our opinions important. this is what makes us work as a community.

[juju]

Exactly.

See, this is where, "Respect being earned" gets you. People get indignant, and then engange you in pointless pages-long debates over nothing.

I mean, think about it -- the fact that jaguar needs to check his spelling is indisputable. Example:

<i>Ut the arguements involved cut ot the core of our economic sturucture of ht efuture - an infomation based economy. Problem i see iwth that is ou currant economy relies of scaristy of goods, only so many tons of gold, HI-Fis, Plums, whatever ot go around. Infomaiton can be replicated 100000000 times and use no finite resources, any attempt to change that is artificial, and tht is the flaw.</i>

I mean...lol.. what more needs to be said? Nothing -- unless one feels obligated to defend one's pride.

[jaguar]

2 points Maggie

First, just because business is immoral doesn't mean I’m not involved in it, and doesn’t mean I don't have respect for those who do it well, doesn't mean it’s not immoral. I'm insulted you'd think I’d miss something so basic.

Secondly, as we've said before, Johnson had many review his work before his publish it, and year to write it, I have MSWord spellchecker and the odd half an hour, my words are not designed to stand the linguistic test of time, they are mere to make a point in a debate here and now.

You ever been to a debate, not some bullshit on TV, a real, live debate? Where you have to think, as you talk, it’s not easy, and its how I post, I construct many of the concepts and ideas as I write, I don't have the preprocessing time, sometimes that makes it a little in articulate, and because I think faster than I can type, typos etc come up.

.(although looking upthread I see only appeals to the crowd, the proprietor, and a few obscenities).

Pardon me, when someone starts looking down their nose at me because of my age, then after taking even high moral ground starts lecuting me, irrispective of whether htey actaully have a pointor not, i tend to get pissed off. I thought there wasen'ta crowd maggie? I thought you were so right, an me, with only 16 odd years to my name was of no importance?

[jaguar]

yea, my typing slipped a bit over the last few weeks, it'll pick up again =)
I don't mind criticism of my typing - that’s fine, its valid, Hubris Boy and I had a long discussion about this, we got on well by the end. On the other hand you cling to status symbols like as though it gives you some kind of elder status that I should bow before. Personally I think that’s pretty damn sad. The other thing that gets to me is the blowing smoke bullshit, goddamnit I’ve won allot of debates, against students, adults, uni students, I came close to cornering our Immigration minister for crying out loud, to say every debate I’ve had on here is blowing smoke is just silly.

Jag's age isn't germane except when he offers opinions about stuff he has little experience with--like firearms ownership, or the morality of engaging in business--then insists they be given equal weight with the views of people who have been around those blocks a few times.

Firearms ownership? That wasn’t the issue and you know it, whether I own a firearm o not is irrelevant to the fact that a gun-soaked society causes more gun deaths, a point you tried to refute until I got concrete evidence. Why should my age affect my opinion on morality of business? I own and operate one, I think my opinion is pretty damn valid, how you think you can substantiate either of those claims is beyond me.

For refrence, if i took on a second job, yes i could move out and look after myself totally, but i want to concentrate totally on my last year of school (which decides my uni enterance score). I pay for everything apart from accomodation, untilities, food and school fees, every piece of clothing, computer hardware, every time i go out etc, is all paid or by me. Mostly i'm saving for a Powerbook atm.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jaguar

First, just because business is immoral doesn't mean I?m not involved in it, and doesn?t mean I don't have respect for those who do it well, doesn't mean it?s not immoral. I'm insulted you'd think I?d miss something so basic.

So...let's sum up your position as you've laid it out in this thread so far: business is immoral, but when it's "done well" you have respect for those who do it, and you do it yourself, and you would do even more of it except for a selfish purpose of your own: extracting as much as possible from your parents so you can get into a good school toting that shiny new Powerbook you want.

Is that a fair summary?

If you were in a position where you had to depend on your own financial efforts to survive, I'd be more inclined to let it pass when you prate about the selfish immorality of being in business. But probably not a lot more...it just seems more egregiously hypocritical in your current situation.

(By the way, I'm having trouble with the sentence you wrote enumerating which necessities you're paying for and which your parents are still providing for you by *their* "immoral" efforts. Which of those commas is supposed to separate those two categories? How were your readers to know?)

I'm sorry you feel insulted, but my impression of what you're *thinking* has to be derrived completely from what you *say*. If you blow by important issues because you're just such a super-fast thinker that the plodding act of creating language can't keep up, you'll have to forgive me when I'm left thinking you haven't actually *had* the thought.

We only know what you think by the evidence of what you say.

Secondly, as we've said before, Johnson had many review his work before his publish it, and year to write it...

Um...which "we" was it who said that? As I said,*I* don't think Jonson had an editor (he certainly didn't have a spell-checker; he even had to write his own dictionary, as I recall). I don't think he took a year to write it the passage I quoted. I think he probably *did* read what he'd written a few times, and reflected on whether his words conveyed his thoughts well. He might even have gone back and changed a phrase or two; which took a bit more effort with quill and parchment than we expend in this text widget here.

I have MSWord spellchecker and the odd half an hour, my words are not designed to stand the linguistic test of time, they are mere to make a point in a debate here and now.

Isn't this debate worth enough time for your input to be well-constructed and convincing? Maybe your words don't need to survive "the linguistic test of time" on a four-century scale, but they *do* need to pass muster in the debate here, and survive the trip from your mind to your reader's mind (a short but perilous journey), for the reasons described eloquently in the Jonson quote. I'll boil down the quote to "sloppy speech implies sloppy thinking", if it must be sloganized into a sound-bite.

You still haven't made any direct comment on the quote. Do you agree with the sentiment it expresses? Disagree? Can you support your disagreement with an alternative proposition?

I don't have the preprocessing time, sometimes that makes it a little in articulate, and because I think faster than I can type, typos etc come up.

Then maybe you should slow down a little. Thinking faster than you type is of no value if your thinking doesn't show up in your typing.

You don't get credit for having thoughts that aren't expressed, or that are poorly expressed. *Typos* are one thing, but words that bear only a passing resemblence to the words in a dictionary are another. Punctuation and sentence structure that cloud the presentation of your ideas are even worse. But the larger-scale structure that presents an idea and then offers support for it is key. Bluting out a proposition and then asserting that "it's obvious" just won't cut it.

And when you and your Powerbook get into that better Uni, the faculty will insist that your discourse toe that line, too. If they don't, you will have been dissed much severly than anything you've suffered at *my* hands here.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jeni
Possibly, this cartoon didn't showcase the artists ideas or drawings to the best of his or her ability. But it is absolutely not necessary to make a crack about age in said situation.

The comment was aimed at the *idea* the cartoon expressed as well as its expression; it was trite and sophomoric. I've actually seen *much * better work from high-school kids. Eliza Gauger's " Mommy Liberty" comes to mind.

[jeni]

Well no fucking shit, Maggie. Why don't you just repeat everything I say, just switch up the words a little and throw in some asterisks.

You said EXACTLY what I said, except you added a few words, changed a few words, and added a link.

WAY TO FUCKING GO.

[MaggieL]

OK, I take it back. There's undoubtedly someone in the artist's high school who draws better cartoons. Too bad theirs wasn't posted.

[ladysycamore]

Ok, after reading this entire thread, I felt the need to respond.

Jag: Hey, if you feel that business is immoral, then that's how you feel...end of story. Don't let others cheapen your point of view about things.

Maggie: Well, you certainly have much to say to this young man, I see. You spoke several times in this thread about being understood, and how Jag's mispellings and errors made "your head hurt". Why is that? You mean to tell me that you aren't "intelligent" enough to read past the mistakes to grasp the meaning of his message (after all, that's how you came across...at least, to ME), or is it that you REALLY can't be bothered to make the effort? If it is to the be latter, then how in the HELL can you expect for anyone to give a good goddamn about anything YOU have to say? It's fine and dandy that you can use big words and put them into even bigger sentences, but in the grand scheme of things, who gives a damn really? Are YOU being "understood" as you THINK you are? Many people see those who appear to be "learned" as pretentious assholes instead of one who has an actual grasp of the English language.

(to Jag, from Maggie)"If you were in a position where you had to depend on
your own financial efforts to survive, I'd be more inclined
to let it pass when you prate about the selfish immorality
of being in business."

I'll make this simple: If that is how Jag felt, then that is how he felt REGARDLESS of his current situation, end of story.

(By the way, I'm having trouble with the sentence you
wrote enumerating which necessities you're paying for
and which your parents are still providing for you by
*their* "immoral" efforts. Which of those commas is
supposed to separate those two categories? How were
your readers to know?)

Easy answer: stop worrying about what the other readers think. Maybe they "got it". That sounded more like "nitpicking" at its worse.

"We only know what you think by the evidence of what
you say."

Mm...you make it a habit of speaking for others? *I* can speak for myself, thanks, as I'm sure every INDIVIDUAL on this board is able to do as well.

"Bluting out a proposition and then asserting that "it's
obvious" just won't cut it."

*Laughing* That comment just struck me as completely absurd. Just because YOU feel that what he says "won't cut it" doesn't make it so. By the way, did you mean "blurting"?

In closing, age discrimination (or ANY type of discrimination) is wrong and the practice of it should be banned from human existance.

Well, it's been real, but I MUST move on. Keep the First Amendment true folks. Peace.

[juju]

If two parties make a transaction that is mutally benificial to both, where is the immorality?

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by juju2112
If two parties make a transaction that is mutally benificial to both, where is the immorality?

Dunno, but apparently LadySyc thinks--oops, I mean *feels* that how Jag feels about it is more important. After all, everybody has feelings, everybody's feelings are just as important as everybody else's, and nobody can dispute them.

I don't doubt for a minute that Jag *feels* business is immoral--after all, he *said* so, and there's absolutely no resaon why he should be called to account for, explain or justify a feeling. That would be mean-spirited and disresepectful.

Don't know what I was thinking of. Or rather, what I was *feeling*. We'll all just emote away here--maybe even write some poetry--and commentary, analysis or discussion will be competely superfluous.

Enough of your silly questions, juju. :-)

[Hubris Boy]

[jaguar]

juju, read a few pages, back, just before dham's first post, by nature taking advantage of the need of others is exploitation, if I see (to use that old example) heroin on the streets to junkies at inflated prices - its exploitation, no? If I sell sun dried tomatoes to yuppies at inflated prices, it’s also exploitation, see my point? Whether both think they're getting a good deal is irrelevant.

So...let's sum up your position as you've laid it out in this thread so far: business is immoral, but when it's "done well" you have respect for those who do it, and you do it yourself, and you would do even more of it except for a selfish purpose of your own: extracting as much as possible from your parents so you can get into a good school toting that shiny new Powerbook you want.

Please Maggie, all I ask is you READ what I say, I said I'M SAVING UP FOR A POWERBOOK WHIT MY OWN MONEY EARNED BY MY OWN WORK....

IN the first sentence yes - you managed to understand what I’m saying, I still have respect for something done well, even if I don't like what it is (take for example businesses like Microsoft). Now if only you could simultaneously hold that concept and the one that we often do things we know are immoral.

If you were in a position where you had to depend on your own financial efforts to survive, I'd be more inclined to let it pass when you prate about the selfish immorality of being in business. But probably not a lot more...it just seems more egregiously hypocritical in your current situation.

Well I can't see my views changing in a year, and in a year that is exactly what ill be doing, I already pay for my own expenses, its only household stuff I don't. Once again - please read what I say instead of knee-jerk reactions after half-skimming my posts.

Um...which "we" was it who said that? As I said,*I* don't think Jonson had an editor (he certainly didn't have a spell-checker; he even had to write his own dictionary, as I recall). I don't think he took a year to write it the passage I quoted. I think he probably *did* read what he'd written a few times, and reflected on whether his words conveyed his thoughts well. He might even have gone back and changed a phrase or two; which took a bit more effort with quill and parchment than we expend in this text widget here.

You still are not getting my point, this is more like a conversation than an essay and is written as one, and I’d say Johnson did have an editor - unless he published all his books himself. It really is a matter of time, just I’d love to spend all day fixing up my language, every tiny mistake, as I would with a full essay form school, but I don't have all day to do that so people like you can pretend to have read it that post uninformed replies based on what they think I wrote. The way i write the two is fundamentally different, and wanyway i'm not goign to start using more complex language to try and make myself feel ebtter than the rest of the peopel ehre unlike some - i'm not trying to alienate people. I mean I could discussion the discussing the profound implications of multitude of padigram shifts in sinoamerican politics in the last decade, which have results in unequivocal tergiversation of american forign policy, but what's the point.

Isn't this debate worth enough time for your input to be well-constructed and convincing? Maybe your words don't need to survive "the linguistic test of time" on a four-century scale, but they *do* need to pass muster in the debate here, and survive the trip from your mind to your reader's mind (a short but perilous journey), for the reasons described eloquently in the Jonson quote. I'll boil down the quote to "sloppy speech implies sloppy thinking", if it must be sloganized into a sound-bite.

First of all, where the fuck are you pulling this slogan shit from, its starting to get on my nerves, as for one word that varied from the dictionary version (which I did at 10am about half an hour after I got up, Christ talk about nitpicking, you've used that one example about 6 times). As I said, and once again you choose to ignore, have you ever been to a live unplanned debate? I've seen people contradict themselves in one sentence, thinking on your feet is not easy at all. Oddly enough you are the only one that seems to have a problem grasping the concepts I put up, if anyone else does - raise your hands.

Bluting out a proposition and then asserting that "it's obvious" just won't cut it.

When did I do that? Pardon? Huh? Reality please. Oh btw – I’ve never “bluted” anything, try a spellchecker hypocrite.

And when you and your Powerbook get into that better Uni, the faculty will insist that your discourse toe that line, too. If they don't, you will have been dissed much severly than anything you've suffered at *my* hands here.

Once again you've shown you don't understand my key point - this is not an essay, this is a conversation. If you want I can post some of my essays I’ve done in the past, maybe that'll clear things up because nothing else seems to be to get though to you.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by MaggieL
We'll all just emote away here--maybe even write some poetry--and commentary, analysis or discussion will be competely superfluous.

"Feeeeelinnnnngs..."

You misspelled the word "completely."

Actually, I already have a poetry page here. But, maybe I'll write a new poem tonight and post it in Sycamoreland.

Thanks for the inspiration!