Guns don't kill people ....

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

There is far too much media fascination with the killer.

I'd like to see a lot more media focus on the teachers.

Many of them successfully hid their classes, misled the killer, and were murdered. Unarmed, untrained for this sort of thing, yet died saving the children in their charge. It doesn't get much more heroic than that.

Originally Posted by glatt

The school has around 670 students. 650 of them walked out of the building and were reunited with their families. That's due entirely to the teachers and the heroic office staff and all the times they had practiced lockdowns.

I've always thought the locked school doors and lockdown drills were overkill, but this incident shows I was probably wrong about that.

The teachers and administrators were true heroes. They bravely sacrificed themselves to protect those less able to protect themselves.

I wonder if republicans will reinstate teachers' pay and benefits in light of this. Naw.

[glatt]

Some interesting gun ownership facts in this NYTimes chart from exit polls 4 years ago.




Obviously there is a huge difference between Democrats and Republicans. But when you look at Republicans, the only places where you see significant different ownership rates are by race, and also by population density. Not many Republicans in the city own guns, and not many Asian Republicans own guns, but when you look at all the other breakdowns, Republicans have consistently high ownership rates.

Then you look at the Democrats, and they are all over the map in every category. A rural Democrat is gonna have a gun. An atheist Democrat won't have a gun. A high school educated Democrat might have a gun, but if they went to college, they probably won't. You can make these sweeping statements for each category. It's really interesting.

[henry quirk]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/iscs11.pdf

[glatt]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

For the record, I am adamantly opposed to semi-automatic firearms, and I think gun ownership requirements in this country are looser than lax. A bolt action rifle with a four round clip is all one needs for hunting.

I've been thinking along those lines too. Legitimate reasons for owning a gun are self defense and hunting. You don't need automatic or semi-automatic guns for either of those. A revolver holds 6 shots and may require a little more strength to pull the trigger, but they were in common use for a century or more and are perfectly effective for personal protection. A pump action shotgun makes a great home defense weapon, and bolt action rifles are great for hunting and shooting varmints around the farm. I'm a little more lax than you. I think 6 shots is reasonable.

I understand gun enthusiasts may like semi-automatic weapons because they are easier to use, just like power steering in a car is easier to use, but I think the line must be drawn somewhere, and it's in the wrong place now.

[henry quirk]

"…the line must be drawn somewhere, and it's in the wrong place now..."

…the obvious opinion of 'some', but not 'others'.


Tomorrow, when the 'law' tightens and the line is where you like, others will kvetch that things are 'too restricted'.

And that's the way it goes: on and on and on.

Power moves from one set of hands to another and what's permissible shifts with it.


Those who want tighter control: no doubt, you'll get your wish.

Those who loath tighter control: don't sweat it...the pendulum ALWAYS swings.

#

Full disclosure: I own one gun (12 gauge coach gun...a man-killer, which is what I mean it to be, though -- in a pinch -- it works for hunting as well). I've no interest in any other firearm, and no interest in giving up what I have.

[Ibby]

Vermont has more or less the loosest gun laws. It has very little gun crime.
I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

[ZenGum]

After the Port Arthur massacre of 1996, we (Australia) tightened our gun laws, which were already tighter than those in the US.

The main change was that semi-autos and pump-actions can have a magazine capacity of no more than five shots. You needed to show specific reason for having one, such as being a professional shooter.

[bluecuracao]

Philly is either the current or a recent murder capital of the U.S., and gun laws here are inadequate. Our problems have more to do with illegal guns, but there are plenty of legal gun problems, too. There are shootings practically every day, it seems. A lot of those involve children.

The police make arrests for illegal guns all the time, but complain that the perps are just let back out on the street. Another source of frustration is the Florida loophole. Pennsylvania recognizes Florida gun permits that anyone can apply for via mail order--even those who can't get a PA permit. And then there are the straw purchasers. When and if they are actually caught, their punishments are light even if the guns they bought are used in crimes.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Ibby

...
I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

This is exactly what I keep thinking.

Root cause analysis.

Sadly, what can you do? Reasonable voices get shouted down. Our mindset is sickened, diminished by cynicism. I don't know what a feasible solution to the underlying problem would even look like. It's something that the cards are stacked against.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Vermont has more or less the loosest gun laws. It has very little gun crime.
I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

Originally Posted by Flint

This is exactly what I keep thinking.

Root cause analysis.

Sadly, what can you do? Reasonable voices get shouted down. Our mindset is sickened, diminished by cynicism. I don't know what a feasible solution to the underlying problem would even look like. It's something that the cards are stacked against.

All I can say is that I agree. We can call people out when they're being stupifucks... I actually had a father of a 5 year old emotionally disturbed child using first person shooter video games to babysit his son on his Dad weekends. Shit like that. Maybe letting people know that their gun fetish is part of the problem. We need to look in the damn mirror.

[henry quirk]

Hyperbole.

[Ibby]

not even a little bit

[henry quirk]

No. This ("death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE") as descriptor for America, is exaggeration taken to an absurd point.


If all you see is one extreme aspect of America, ignoring all others, then you suffer from skewed thinking.

Take a friggin' walk -- with 'open' eyes -- through any town or city you care to name: you'll see all manner of extremisms running along side all manner of moderatisms and all manner of down-right placid, peaceful, and serene-isms.


Hyperbole is the tool of the Sophist (there's more than one of those in this place...are you one?)


Decisions made in the midst of anger or grief are always bad decisions.

Reaction is the enemy of response.

Long past time, I think, for folks to 'stop' and 'think'.

It 'feels good' to be righteous, but righteous is not always 'right'.

I, for one, will not follow you (or any one) down the path of 'good intentions'.

[Flint]

I don't think the intent is to portray American culture as monolithic, but conversely, is it feasible to propose that there are no systemic cultural issues? Don't you think it's possible that anomolies that arise within a culture can indiacte a systemic problem? That is to say, in the simplest form, that a different set of variables will alter the outcome of a complex scenario? More precisely, if one could indentify the correct variables (as I said, Root Cause Analysis) at least the call to action wouldn't risk being made blindly. As you said, stop and think--that's what we're doing here.

Reaction is the enemy of response.

Long past time, I think, for folks to 'stop' and 'think'.

As H.L. Mencken said, "There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong."

[henry quirk]

I addressed Ibby's hyperbole (and the skewed thinking it stems from), not "systemic cultural issues", but, since you bring it up...


No, I don't think -- in a country of 350 million individuals (and counting), situated on a planet with 7 billion individuals (and counting) -- it's possible to "indentify the correct variables ".

Every single person is a "variable".