Ecologically-friendly nuclear

[russotto]

You're looking at the transmission lines. The substation south of Limerick also seems to have some distribution lines associated with it.

[tw]

The discussion is asking how fungible is electricity. UT has been citing satellite photographs of lines I just cannot see in these photos. For example, provided is the switching yard for Limerick. Limerick power plant in upper half. Switch yard for transmission lines in lower right:
Limerick
How many power lines enter this switch yard? Well I don't see all the power lines. But I do see structures that terminate those lines. I count at least nine lines. Four to the backbone to the east. Two from the nuclear power plant. One to Cromby. Two from the backbone from the west. Can anyone actually see all those lines? I can't even when zeroing in on switch yard at best resolution, how does one see transmission lines?
Limerick switch yard

Look closely at this picture of where two Limerick lines and one Cromby line cross the Perkiomen Creek:
Perkiomen Crossing

An uppermost line (appears as three lines) from Limerick crosses over a north/south dam. The next line down crosses over the lower edge of that same dam - line barely visible. The southern lines that appear as two wires is the Cromby line. The Cromby line passes through and connects to a substation.

This is best visibility possible. How from these crude pictures can anyone say which lines maintain which direction? One of the two Limerick transmisson lines is barely visible.

Now we refer to the topographical map of that same region. Apparently only one Limerick line (the less visible one) and one Cromby line existed back then (1983).


What I remember of N Wales is that three 230Kv lines enter. The backbone lines from Limerick are 500 Kv. One enters N Wales from the north to connect eastward; two 230 Kv lines enter from the south to connect southward and westward. Only the wire to the SW connects to Cromby - whose outgoing lines are also 230 Kv. IOW 500 Kv lines from Limerick do not connect to N Wales.

Good luck seeing both lines entering from the south. None of the three would be 500 KV lines that would be the PJM backbone and that connect from Limerick. But again, how could one tell from best detail arial photo of N Wales switch yard:
N Wales switch yard


So how fungible is electricity when Limerick Nuclear power connects mostly to backbone lines that go elsewhere. Meanwhile, Cromby, a fossil fuel plant, provides direct connections to substations on the Perkiomen Creek, in N Wales, and on substations near the Cellar along the Schuykill River. Substations around the Cellar have direct connections to Cromby via 230 Kv lines - not to Limerick via 500 Kv lines. Even though the grid is only 20% nuclear, it appears that The Cellar gets most all its electricity from a fossil fuel (oil, coal, and natural gas) plant. I don't see how UT could count lines nor say where those lines connect from satellite photos. The best photos I can find don't even show all the lines nor can tell which type of transmission lines they are. But we know from those satellite photos that only three lines terminate in N Wales - which would be one from Cromby and none from Limerick. Even the number of lines UT says are going to N Wales does not agree with satellite photos of the N Wales substation. I don't see where his claims or his numbers are justified by any ariel photos.

[Undertoad]

With Google Earth, you get a higher resolution and color! And I get that on a 1600x1200 20.1" LCD monitor....

The Limerick-to-Cromby line looks like it comes off the upper left of the Limerick plant as shot in the first image you present. They don't enter the switch yard.

Where crossing the Perk, the lines from Cromby are the bottom two. They are slightly brighter than the others.

Your final image is of a North Wales switch yard, but I was actually referring to a much, much larger switch on North Wales Road. this one You can see 9 wires entering it from the west. It sure looks like the Cromby wires lead to your small substation and the Limerick wires lead to this massive one off N. Wales Rd. The Topo maps seem to indicate the Cromby wires as a black dotted line and the Limerick as purple dotted.

Just get Google earth already, it's free.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Your final image is of a North Wales switch yard, but I was actually referring to a much, much larger switch on North Wales Road.

That larger switch yard is Whitpain - a major hub on the backbone that transmits power to Soudertown, Allentown area, and North Jersey. You should see four major transmission lines from Limerick to Whitpain. Beneath or adjacent to those transmisson lines may be a lower voltage distributon line that uses the same right of way to distribute power to local substations. Cromby has no direct connection to Whitpain.

Major hubs in the grid are obvious. For example, those traveling north of Flemington on Route 202 observe another major hub on the right as transmission lines from many directions converge on that switch yard. Electricity through these switching points would be quite fungible.

[Undertoad]

The nine lines into Whitpain are probably 6 in, 3 out, then, because three of those lines lead north roughly following the turnpike. Two head south... oh hell, here's what it looks like in Google Earth already; my notes in light blue. Sorry for everyone else still reading the thread.



The road with the red line on it is N. Wales Rd. The blue double line is the Pennsylvania turnpike.

It's kinda fun tracing these things out with Google Earth. G.E. looks a little better than the above image, which is compressed JPG for the purpose of showing here.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The nine lines into Whitpain are probably 6 in, 3 out, then, because three of those lines lead north roughly following the turnpike.

Transmission lines are three wires; one for each phase. In the switching yard, all three conduits are equally spaced in sets of three. Those six wires from Limerick are really just two 500 Kv tansmisson lines from Limerick. The other two lines from Limerick taking a more northernly path are just above. All four transmission lines from Limerick enter in the center left. Other transmission lines exit Whitpain in the upper right to continue north and east.

I believe a lower voltage transmission line leaves center right headed north adjacent to the turnpike. Destination N Wales. That would be one of the two 230 Kv transmission lines that enter N Wales from the south.

[Undertoad]

Updating this thread, in which we argued over transmission lines four years ago --

Exelon has announced that they are shutting down the Cromby Generating Station (and Eddystone, probably xoB's provider) on May 31 2009.

NOW how much of my power will be nuclear?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Why those pricks! For 24 years they've been dumping gritty crap on my car, and now I'm retiring, they're shutting down.

[Lamplighter]

Who says we can't conserve our way out of nuclear power argument...
This is the full article, except the pic which is out of google images...



Forbes
William Pentland
8/1/13

Duke Pulls Plug On Planned Nuclear Project in Florida

The downsizing of America’s nuclear fleet appears to be accelerating.

Earlier today, Duke Energy (DUK +0.72%), the largest U.S. utility company based in Charlotte, NC,
said it would abandon the Levy nuclear reactor project in Florida.

“The Duke decision to pull the plug on Levy follows by just one day
the announcement that the French-subsidized nuclear giant EDF

EDF is pulling out of the U.S. nuclear power market due to the inability
of nuclear power to compete with alternatives and the dramatic reduction in demand growth
caused by increasing efficiency of electricity consuming devices,”
said Mark Cooper, senior fellow for economic analysis at
Vermont Law School’s Institute for Energy and the Environment.

Cooper published a report earlier this month forecasting that three dozen reactors are at risk of early retirement.

(Ummmm but then, Vermont is a leading producer of solar panels in the US )

OTOH, I was just starting my career when the 5-Mile Island event occurred,
and it influenced my thinking (negatively) about nuclear power ever since.
At times, I have to admit that maybe nuclear power is ultimately the way
the world will have to go, what with environmental pollution, global warming, etc., etc.,
But still on balance, I think doing away with nuclear power may be the best decision.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Yet, Th-fueled reactors remain fascinating. The fuel itself is less bother and more common, and it's antiproliferative nuclear power too. Sounds like it can drive anything that needs nuke power.

The most recent wrinkle seems to be a mainly-thorium, some-plutonium fuel rod, not only consuming the plutonium but using it as an alpha-source to bombard the thorium, which is thought (experimental assessment pending) to work quite as well as hitting it with thermal neutrons to light it and keep it lit. If I understand the technicalities.

[Lamplighter]

...experimental assessment pending...

details ... details

[tw]

What happens when neutrons get cold? Do they emit darkness?

[Clodfobble]

They ask the proton to go get them a blanket.


And the proton's like, "Seriously? I've been at work all day, you've just been orbiting around the house and watching soap operas. Now you want me to wait on you?"

And the neutron's all, "What happened to chivalry? You're not the particle I bonded with."


And then they split, and that's how fission works kids!

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

details ... details

Well, the big new diff in this study reactor up in Norway is that the first method considered for Th-fuel fission was "we need a neutron source" to bombard the thorium, making it U233 -- a short half life and lots and lots of hot, consuming the thorium, decaying readily itself, and turning the steam turbines. Now they're trying the same but using alpha particles, this being what plutonium mostly spits, and plutonium is alloyed in the thorium fuel rods for the purpose. They may be making specific use of Pu240's high rate of spontaneous fission here. Pu240 seems a nuisance in bomb making; Pu239 is much more cooperative for waiting around in an arsenal, but 240 is more immediately useful generating power.

Part of the "experimental results pending" is that after running the fuel rods for a goodish while, a few years if memory serves, they're going to pull the rods and analyze them -- to see if they're ending up with what they expect, I gather. And what all that will mean to the business of nuclear power -- what if anything they might need to do differently from the use or reprocessing of enriched-uranium rods.

[xoxoxoBruce]

It's not the alpha from the plutonium that will make the Thorium viable. Alpha's only good for making Helium.