The ethics of citizenship

[Troubleshooter]

The founding fathers were much closer to the real problems and issues of citizenship than I think that we are. They came at a time that we are slowly approaching I think.

Let's have some their words...


The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

A little rebellion now and then...is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), Letter to James Madison, 1787

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

Learned Institutions ought to be favorite objects with every free people. They throw that light over the public mind which is the best security against crafty and dangerous encroachments on the public liberty.
James Madison

The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
James Madison

Educate your children to self-control, to the habit of holding passion and prejudice and evil tendencies subject to an upright and reasoning will, and you have done much to abolish misery from their future and crimes from society.
Benjamin Franklin

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Originally posted by smoothmoniker
"The poor you will always have with you ..."

Yeah, it sucks to be poor. Unfortunately, poverty is not a social issue that can be swept away or dealt with en masse. It is solved one person at a time, by that one person securing and maintaining gainful employment. There is no political system better than democracy, no economic system better than capitalism for creating opportunities to sell one’s time and services.

Or is that too intellectually lazy for you?

-sm

The smug recital of right wing dogma is hardly indicative of an anylitical mind. I am in full agreement that democracy is an excellent political system. I question if we still live in a real democracy. As for capitalism, if its such a great economic system, then why are so many US jobs vanishing off overseas? If you wish to make some sort of free market apology for this phenomenon, you are misguided. First of all, the outflow of jobs is not about healthy global competition. Its about the lower standard of living (which you noted yourself in a previous post) in Asian and other countries. Big business can take advantage of cheap labor in China at the expense of American workers. You are damn straight that I and every other American worker I know want to go out there, get a job, and stand on our own two feet. But how can we, as more and more American jobs vanish overseas? China is not playing by the same rules we are and its anything but a level free market playing field. You want to assume the role of American patriot or do you want to assume the role of global citizen. You can't have it both ways.

Second, the largest segments of Americans living below the poverty line consist of children under 6, the elderly, and the disabled. In effect, you are screaming out the window at a three year old child to go get a job. I've seen the results of your mentality in Brazil where 9, 10, and 11 year old girls are so desperate to survive that they turn to prostitution. Maybe that turns you on, but most people find their situatioin tragic.

Not every elderly person is the owner of a company or has hundreds of thousands of dollars that they are evading paying taxes for so they just look poor. By the way, why is it that so many well to do conservatives do everything possible to avoid paying the taxes that help our esteemed system continue to functioin? If you guys think its so great, why the hell aren't you willing to do the honorable thing and pay taxes like everyone else?

Finally, the disabled of this country are not drug addicts who wish to live off the government while they snort up. That is a wonderful example of the prejudice and narrowed minded thinking with which Americans with disabilities are treated to by their fellow citizens. The process of obtaining disability benefits from social security is a long and arduous one. The MINIMUM wait is two years - many times its longer. The applicant is subject to rigorous examinations by physicians, case workers, and must often appear before a federal judge to prove their disability. Anyone who's only problem is a desire to become a tweaker at government expense is quickly weeded out in the social security SSI/SSDI claims process. At the end, do you know what the big payoff is for an individual disabled and unable to work?

No, of course not, because you with your intellectually curious mind, never bothered to find out. $560.00 a month. That's it plus about $50.00 in food stamps. That's what we expect our disabled citizens to live on.

Everybody seems to have some story of an individual who is conning the system, but in all likelihood, these malingers (and I admit they DO exist, although not in the numbers most people think) are defrauding workman's comp or a private disability insurance company where the oversight is not as rigorous as it is for SSI/SSDI.

As Ayn Rand wrote, "Check you premises."

[Clodfobble]

Second, the largest segments of Americans living below the poverty line consist of children under 6, the elderly, and the disabled. In effect, you are screaming out the window at a three year old child to go get a job.

One woman and her 3 children living below the poverty line will cause statistics like this. No one is screaming at the child to get a job, they are telling the mother to get a job.

The process of obtaining disability benefits from social security is a long and arduous one. The MINIMUM wait is two years - many times its longer.

Purely anecdotal evidence here... My father-in-law had to go on disability benefits from social security last year. It took a month and a half before the first check arrived.

Scream at the Mother all you wish. She's going to have to find a job that will cover the cost of day care on top of bringing in enough money to support 4 people. Her job has flown off to China and where's the father in all this? How come no one is screaming at him? Meanwhile, that woman's little children are going without proper nutrition or medical care, and your response is just "too bad?"

As for your father in law, that's merely anecdotal evidence. How old was he? What was his disability and are you sure he's recieving SSDI?

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by marichiko

If you guys think its so great, why the hell aren't you willing to do the honorable thing and pay taxes like everyone else?

As Ayn Rand wrote, "Check you premises."

You can't be serious. Who the hell do you think pays for the system? The guy down the block making 30k a year? The guy at Ralph’s Grocery bitching that his company won't pay for his medical insurance?

It's me, people like me, and people with more money than me. What I pay in income taxes covers about 8 people in disability, according to your numbers. How's that for supporting the system?

I don't like it, I don't think it's right, but I sure as hell do it. You can hate me for being successful at what I do, you can hate me for creating jobs for other people because of the risks I took early on, but you CANNOT accuse me of not paying my fair share of taxes.

Asshat.

-sm

[Clodfobble]

Scream at the Mother all you wish. She's going to have to find a job that will cover the cost of day care on top of bringing in enough money to support 4 people. Her job has flown off to China and where's the father in all this? How come no one is screaming at him? Meanwhile, that woman's little children are going without proper nutrition or medical care, and your response is just "too bad?"

First off, I don't recall saying "too bad" to anyone, certainly not the children. I think I would say "too bad" to the mother who doesn't want to get a job though.

Second, her job has not flown off to China unless everyone's commuting to China to eat dinner tonight, ordering pizza from China tonight, or shipping their building over to be cleaned by the Chinese tonight. I don't know about the hypothetical you're envisioning, but MY hypothetical woman is not a laid-off skilled factory worker. The simple fact is there ARE jobs available, just not necessarily jobs at the pay or comfort level one thinks they deserve.

Third, she gets tax credits for daycare (even if she has not paid taxes in the first place because she doesn't have a job.) In addition, many public schools offer pre-school starting at age 3, and many churches offer downright free daycare if you can show you are genuinely trying to improve your situation. Also, "supporting four people" is an extremely misleading statement. She's not supporting four adults. Rent is going to be her biggest expense, and three children can easily share one bedroom.

Fourth, I would be willing to bet I am more familiar with the ins and outs of family court than you are. PLENTY of people are screaming at the father, and often unrightfully so. In this day and age if a woman truly wants to find the father and get her money, she can. (More often they don't want the man in their lives at all because they don't want to let him have any visitation with the kids--and DON'T tell me that she has good reason, that women are better equipped to raise them by default.) You talk about how little $560 a month is for a person on disability. A man making minimum wage has roughly that much money left after child support. In addition, in the large majority of cases the father is required to provide medical insurance for the children, so their medical needs are fine--again, if the mother is willing to allow the horrifying possibility of the father having visitation rights.

And either way, if their medical/nutritional needs really get out of line, the children are taken away. Because we have a state that does that, unlike, say, Brazil.

As for your father in law, that's merely anecdotal evidence. How old was he? What was his disability and are you sure he's recieving SSDI?

I agree, it is anecdotal evidence, just as I said. He was 63, his disability was brain cancer, and I am quite certain he was on SSDI. I don't know how much money he received per month.

[jaguar]

The smug recital of right wing dogma is hardly indicative of an anylitical mind.

Neither is godawful spelling mistakes. I speak as one who has made far too many himself.

I've lived fairly close to the edge for a while, It's not much fun, I'm a lucky fucker to be where I am and I don't ignore that fact.

Ask anyone here (try UT for starters) I tend to be a little left of center on most issues, I still don't agree with you. What exactly is your point? There are poor people in america? Being poor sucks? Being disabled and poor sucks? Or for that matter what is your answer? You've got rant after rant full of social issues, economic issues, outsourcing, single parenting, poverty, disabled and elderly welfare....yea stuff sucks but what exactly are you trying to get across or advocating. Also, accusing, without evidence of the most slim, that people here are evading taxes is not going to bolster your claims to being an anylitical mind.

[Undertoad]

You'd be surprised how many people that appear to be working are actually running their own S-corp. Even the big companies are full of consultants.

It's not tax evasion because the IRS does pursue actual numbers and all income is reported. It's just moving money around from point to point temporarily. It just so happens to make me look all poor and unemployed for the statistics, when I am not either.

[OnyxCougar]

I would like to know what all this rant is good for?

What are YOU, Marichiko, doing to change that?

Don't tell me what "Americans" are doing.

What are YOU doing to change it?

[wolf]

Originally posted by marichiko
Her job has flown off to China and where's the father in all this?

The father, more often than not, is unknown or absentee, either by his own choice to avoid the responsibility, or by choices related to his actions (i.e., he's incarcerated).

McDonalds isn't in China. It's down the goddamn street. So are any number of service jobs. Most of them, in a desperate attempt to attract workers are paying above minimum wage and offer benefits, and still the jobs go empty ...

There have been attempts in the US to sustain Welfare to Work programs. It doesn't work because the people who are entered in such programs have no desire to work, succeed, or do much to change their situations.

Employers in these programs are frustrated because their govt mandated "employees" don't get the hang of things like showing up for work when scheduled, or performing job responsibilties on those rare occasions that they do show up.

To Mr. SM: “you can hate me for creating jobs for other people because of the risks I took early on, but you CANNOT accuse me of not paying my fair share of taxes.
Asshat.”
Mr. SM, I stand corrected. I was confusing you with Mr. Undertoad and whatever paper shuffling he admits to in order to appear as having no income. My apologies for confusing the two of you. I do not “hate” you for creating jobs and being successful through your own hard work and willingness to take risks. I didn’t even know about those things and I honor anyone with the intelligence and pluck to succeed in the business world. I am not advocating a dreary communist economy where merit and hard work bring no reward. What I am advocating is social awareness and a sense of enlightened self interest. The disabled man or the child living in poverty that you help today may then be given the chance to enter the work force and become one of your best employees, bringing in thousands of dollars for your company. Or you can refuse them help and pay the cost of social unrest and wasted human potential.

Nor do I hate you because we differ in political outlook. I have called upon you to intelligently defend your position and offer me something besides rhetoric in its defense. Sorry to disappoint you, but my strongest response toward you has been one of exasperation because of your lack of a good, rational argument in defense of your words. Calling me “asshat” does not impress me with your ability to conduct a civil debate, Sir. I have apologized to you for my mixing you up with Mr. Undertoad, now perhaps you might like to apologize for your thinly disguised poor language.

To Mr. Cloddfobble: “Fourth, I would be willing to bet I am more familiar with the ins and outs of family court than you are.” I am sure you are, and I am sorry to hear of what sounds like an extremely unfair and emotionally difficult situation for you. All too often there are wrongs committed against both sides in divorce and custody hearings, and I have heard countless bitter stories from men and women both in this regard. To me its just one more example, that we citizens need to watch dog our courts and legislatures to ensure fair laws are passed and that those laws are impartially administered by our judges. As to your father in law, he became eligible for early social security benefits at age 62. Therefore, his case was different than most.

To Mr. Jaguar: “Neither is godawful spelling mistakes. I speak as one who has made far too many himself.” I freely admit to atrocious spelling. This board doesn’t have a spell check or if it does, I haven’t figured it out. Between spell check and having had a secretary for 20 years who corrected my professional correspondence for me, I have fallen into an extremely slothful approach to spelling, especially in the heat of the moment. Spelling is not the issue here, however. The use of valid reasoning is.

“what exactly are you trying to get across or advocating. Also, accusing, without evidence of the most slim, that people here are evading taxes is not going to bolster your claims to being an anylitical mind.”
My original post was asking the question what is the ethical/moral response of a concerned individual in the face of perceived flaws in our governing system and national policies? Mr. SM then responded with a post saying in effect “everything’s going good for me, what’s the big deal?” I replied to this with a random set of government statistics, easily obtainable from the internet, as things that might concern a responsible citizen. I accuse no one of anything. I simply comment on Mr. Undertoad’s admission that on paper he has no income.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by marichiko
I question if we still live in a real democracy.

We've never really been a "real" democracy, per se. The US is a republic, not a true democracy.

The MINIMUM wait is two years

Lady Sycamore applied for SSDI in early December 2002 (end-stage renal failure), and received her first check in late January 2003...6-7 weeks.

At the end, do you know what the big payoff is for an individual disabled and unable to work?

No, of course not, because you with your intellectually curious mind, never bothered to find out. $560.00 a month. That's it plus about $50.00 in food stamps. That's what we expect our disabled citizens to live on.

Would you mind providing a source for this information you're posting? Are these averages? Lady Syc pulls down just over $800 a month...of course, it isn't shit compared to what she made while working, but she'll take what she can get.

[Undertoad]

My company has income, I have equity. This year the company will have no income and I will have pay. The tax liability is similar, except: Social Security. Last year I paid none; this year and every subsequent year I will pay double*, as does every self-employed person**.


*Yes, I know that in some sense all employed people pay double, it's just recorded as being "matched by the employer". Nevertheless I will have to find a way to bring in more income to pay for it on my own.

**With the exception of a small number of Radaresque tax-evaders/tax patriots. And those working the underground economy.

[OnyxCougar]

I would also like to know (since I haven't received an answer to the previous questions posited to Michiko) if Michiko has actually experienced being homeless and in the dire straits presented in the commentary?

Or is that a set of responses gleaned solely from internet sources, compressed together to form a "worst case scenario" implication?

[jaguar]

For someone with 20 years with a personal secretary ...Odd individual to be arguing for social welfare. Keep in mind though that spelling mistakes do detract from your point, no matter how valid your point may be. This is merely from personal experience. My best advice, since your posts tend to be long, this goes double it to simply select your post, open your favorite text editor, copy, spellcheck, paste. Takes 20 seconds.

Also don't misinterpret what Ut said, I saw no admission of tax evasion in there, just that states don't count certain types of income. I pay in total over 6 figures worth of tax yet my income, as far as the tax office is concerned is in the 5 figure range. Finances can be complicated things, with cash routed through investment vehicles, account networks and portfolio diversity is only getting more complex.I do engage in some tax minimization but this is to avoid paying tax twice on the same thing in most cases. Secondly I prefer to give money to charities who aim for goals I agree with rather than governments. As far as I'm concerned there are greater plights in the world than the working (or not) poor in America.