PUA

[DanaC]

There's been a lot of stuff in the news lately about Pick Up Artists - a high profile PUA guru has been asked to leave Australia after a campaign against him (in particular the way some of his videos basically encourage a form of harrassment and assault - wandering around a Japanese city grabbing girls heads and bending them down to touch his cock, whilst yelling Pikachu) and there's currently a petition running to deny him a visa for a UK visit.

I got quite interested in PUA stuff after the Isla Vista murders - given the lad's interest and regular presence in the PUAHate forum. Sp I've been visiting the odd pua site - reading some of their strategies and glossaries of terms - as well as occasionally lurking in a few forums.

Fascinating. And also quite scary.

The attitude to women in these places fucking terrifies me. We are not fully human to the men who write the guides, certainly not in the same way that they are human, anyway. And in some of the forum conversations it seems clear that the men posting are looking at women and seeing things. Things that they desire, but things.

The sense of bruised entitlement is staggering. The codifying of women's internal selves as a set of easily glossed stimuli responses and the flipside of blame and anger at women who do not conform to those stimuli responses is horrible.

These guys are not harmless charlatans. Not only are they fleecing some of the most vulnerable people out there (young men struggling to find their place in the world and connect with women) but they are selling a view of women that is deeply damaging.

This view of women can also be seen in many o fthe Men's Rights sites. Now - not saying that the menz don't have some stuff that really needs addressing (assumptions against them in custody hearings, high rates of male suicide and a real discrepancy in the focus of medical science in some areas) - but a lot of it is just pure vitriol and an absolute belief that women are the real and usurping power in the world (ignoring the fact that women make up a tiny percentage of those in any positions of power, from upper management to politics, to banking and finance) - that they should return to an earlier model of femininity in which they are more passive and compliant.

Though they decry the actions of Elliot Rodgers, they also place the blame for his actions on the shoulders of today's women.

Like this, for instance, from returnofkings.com

Rodger’s manifesto clearly states that his utter failure with women drove him to murder. The problem that he experienced is not unique—many men in Western society graduate from high school or college to realize that they have absolutely no skill or ability to seduce the opposite sex. We live in a society where being shy, normal, or a little awkward is duly punished by entitled American women who have been encouraged to pursue exciting and fun casual sex in their prime with sexy and hot men as a way of “experimentation.” They are enabled by the culture to seek out bad boys while rejecting the nice guy who is “boring.” This behavior continues until they find that they are past their physical prime, whereby the nice guy is plucked from a spartan sexual existence and expected to keep his mouth shut when a trickle flow of informational torture reveals that his bride-to-be has experienced more than a dozen different penises in her vagina, anus, and mouth—the same mouth that is supposed to kiss his future children good night

Nice huh?

[DanaC]

New Statesman did an interesting piece on this. Particularly looking at the pseudoscience and cod evopsyche aspects. Here's a little snippet from PUALingo.com

In animal hierarchies, the Alpha Male is the most dominant, and typically the physically strongest member of the group. For example, in wolf packs, the “alpha wolf” is the strongest member of the pack, and is the leader of the group. This position of leadership is often achieved by killing or defeating the previous Alpha Male in combat. Alpha wolves have first access to food as well as mating privileges with the females of the pack.

Social status among human social groups is less rigidly defined than in the animal kingdom, but there are some recognizable parallels. Although people don’t often engage in physical violence to achieve dominance, there are still recognizable leaders in different fields who have wide access to material resources and women.

A concept picked up on by PUA Artist 'Mystery'

The apes are still living that way. They have complex social hierarchies, and so do we. If you can systematically demonstrate those three characteristics - again, they are leader of men, pre-selected by women, protector of loved ones - if you can convey and systematically demonstrate those characteristics, you will be the tribal leader. A woman’s brain is designed to align with the tribal leader of her community. Why? Because it improves her chances of survival and replication dramatically. She doesn’t even have to be with the tribal leader, she just has to hook up with one of his friends.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/future-p...-male-thinking

[DanaC]

I should say, inthe interests of fairness, they aren't just dismissive of women and female autonomy - they're also pretty unpleasant about gay men too. And quite a lot of the sites seem to have an undercurrent of racism too - lot of stuff about white men as the victims of a massive conspiracy of the feminist, homosexual, race warrior cabal.

I should also say, again in the interests of fairness - that I have read some equally nasty shit from the extreme wings of the feminist movement, particularly from the 70s and 80s activists - the commune initiative for instance where only women and girls could live and no boys not even babies.

[Sundae]

One of the Cracked.com writers (I know, cracked!) wrote a piece on something along the lines of "Why Men Hate Women"
Male writer.
And no, it wasn't unreasonable or spewing, it was fair and balanced, and about how culture is still stuck in the viewpoint of woman-as-prize.
Everything from Mario to St George to Disney to soap operas says a man is a winner if he gets the girl.
And what does that make the "girl".
Prize.
A vagina nicely wrapped up in a package, thank you and can I have a cheaper one just for Tuesday nights, because there's not much on TV then.

My charity shop reading has really surprised me.
Older books.
Shut up, open up, put the food on the table. It was a golden age all right.

I don't hate men. I like them quite a bit. And as Sinatra says, I've had a few.
So I'm not bitter.
But I am sometimes unpleasantly surprised.
F**K Mars and Venus. Just don't be nasty.

[DanaC]

Yeahp.

There is a PUA site called Dallas PUA which has a 'recommended reading' page.

Here's what they recommend men read in order to be a pick up artist:

The 48 Laws Of Power - Robert Greene
The Art of Seduction - Robert Greene
The Art of War - Sun Tzu
Dating & Seduction
Dog Training - Lew BurkeFrogs to Princes - Richard Bandler & John Grinder
The Game - Neil Strauss
How to Get the Women You Desire Into Bed - Ross Jeffries
How to Pick Up Girls - Eric Weber
Influence - Robert Cialdini
Introducing NLP - Joseph O'Connor & John Seymour
Mastering Your Hidden Self - Serge Kahili King
My Secret Garden - Nancy Friday
Nice Guys Don't Get Laid - Marcus Meleton
No More Mister Nice Guy - Robert A. Glover
The Red Queen - Matt Ridley
Secrets of the Millionaire Mind - T. Harv Eker
The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
Sperm Wars - Robin Baker
Unlimited Power - Anthony Robins

Yep. Fucking dog training book.

And just to be clear that this isn't some accidental inclusion here's what came up on google when I searched 'Dog Training - Lew Burke'

So, I followed the second link and here's what some wannabe lothario thinks about women:

Ok, this may seem a bit odd at first, but it is a pretty good thought. Dogs have a sense of following the pack leader. If an owner shows pack leader skills, the dog will obey. This is the same with women. You see, the pack leader is the same as the alpha male. Both roles deal with leadership. With dogs, you need to stress that you lead, you should be the first in the house, in front of them during walks, only feed them when you feel they deserve it, and apply proper punishments. Now for the women. Women need to be led as well. You should always take the lead during any intimacy, be the first to suggest ideas, only show intimacy when you feel they have earned it, and ultimately, they should never be in control of your life. Just like dogs their are always others to spend your time with (although I think I'll keep the dogs I have :p ). So again this is just something I thought of, but maybe it will help someone out.

[Undertoad]

This seems to be a small number of men who are sociopathic, and I would say the best course of action would be to ignore the whole thing







because otherwise these dickheads are getting all kinds of undue attention. Which is why they advertise their deeds at all. FFS this is not a social movement and their work is not going to de-legitimize the female sex. Why pay them any heed?

And apparently you can get banned from Australia for being an asshole? This is the only part of the story that is interesting.

[DanaC]

Yeah maybe. I keep coming across their ilk in forums (not this one :P) and comments sections of newspapers. And I've met a few in real life too.

There seems a lot of this kind of thinking (I don't mean the really over the top stuff, this is the milder stuff) amongst lads on the gamer scene. I really think a lot of them wuold be a fuck of a lot happier, and get a whole heap more exxy sexxy action if they started viewing women as other people.

And apparently you can get banned from Australia for being an asshole? This is the only part of the story that is interesting.

I don't think it was just for being an asshole, to be fair :P

His promotional videos crossed a line into something like incitement to harrass/assault. Or at least that is the rationale. I see where they're coming from, and I think the line was crossed - but I'm not sure banning him is the best response.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

...I keep coming across their ilk in forums (not this one :P)...

Hey, I resent that.

[Aliantha]

Yeah, he got kicked out actually. Visa revoked. People didn't like the fact that he wanted to teach other men how to choke women. Pretty sure those aren't the sorts of values we like to cherish here in Australia. He can go back to where he came from and stay there till his dick falls off.

eta: I suspect the fact that domestic violence has had a sharp increase here in recent years might have been the argument. We already have a silent problem. We don't need any more fools jumping on the bandwagon because some other fool says it's a good idea.

[DanaC]

That's basically what the Victorian police commissioner said about it. There's been a rise not just in domestic violence but in fatal domestic violence in Victoria in recent years - so a man teaching techniques that involve shades of violence and coercive sex is a worrying element.

I also think the reason it turned into actually kicking him out of the country was because when he was prevented from holding his seminar in the original venue he took it onto the river and held it on a boat.

I have my doubts about whether it was the right response. Similarly, the Uk might be about to refuse him entry. Again, not sure if that'sthe right response. So - fewer men will get to see his live seminars - but the furore over him may mean far more young men seeking him out on youtube and the like.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I also think the reason it turned into actually kicking him out of the country was because when he was prevented from holding his seminar in the original venue he took it onto the river and held it on a boat.

Just like Jesus!

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

We don't need any more fools jumping on the bandwagon because some other fool says it's a good idea.

Would you run our gov't? Please?

[Aliantha]

Haha...highly unlikely grav. You guys like to keep it in house anyway.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Just like Jesus!

Genius.

[infinite monkey]

Just like Jenius!