Grenfell Blaze

[Undertoad]

it might turn out exterior cladding burns at a lower temperature than jet fuel

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

My brother's a hardcore 9/11 truther. Here's my thing:

What, then? I'm willing to concede the possibility that there was more going on that day than we know, simply because there's always more going on than we know. So let's assume there's a shadow organization that can take down two buildings--install professional demo charges with no one seeing (a process that takes months of planning even when done out in the open,) coordinate with the presumably separate plans of a bunch of Saudis, be close enough to the scene to detonate them but far enough away not to die doing so, cover the whole thing up--if this is the case, is there anything they can't do? If they're that powerful, we're already fucked, and knowing about it won't change a thing.

So maybe it's true. Maybe, in fact, we're about to find out the whole thing was the Russians, and the American government covered it up because it was better than getting ourselves into WW III. Maybe now WW III is okay because it's the only thing that keeps us out of a second Civil War. But it also kind of doesn't matter, because the kids still gotta eat dinner tonight. If I'm powerless to do anything about a fact one way or another, then does it really matter if I believe it or not?

It's about insisting on truth and calling out liars. We cannot change what happened, but insisting on the truth keeps us mentally healthy. It's about resisting being gaslighted. Had we clamored for truth more and looked more critically at the misinformation disseminated
after 911, and fucking paid attention is science class, we wouldn't be having douchey mcdoughenozzle as president, who seems to be able to say and do anything regardless of its veracity, and have people respond to him as though what he was saying and doing was credible.

Setting the precedent of accepting lies as truth, or receiving information and accepting it with out critical thinking is a step that can't easily be undone.

I'm outraged at the complacency of people to see a building like Grenfell stand after a fire like that (just like every other steel framed building that has been consumed by fire apart from WTC) and not recall the specious claim that WTC collapsed at free-fall speeds because of a small, brief, contained fire.

That shrugging of shoulders, or accepting the easy soundbite explanation without saying bullshit is a lazy habit that breeds Trumps and Trump voters.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

it might turn out exterior cladding burns at a lower temperature than jet fuel

It wasn't just the cladding that burned.
Jet fuel burns at 1,890 °F

Historical Survey of Building Collapses with extensive data including construction material, height, duration of fire, and degree of damage. Also lists buildings comsumed by fire that did not collapse.

Spoiler Alert:
Apart from WTC, the only other steel framed buildings involved in fires had only partial structural damage to one or two floors.

This isn't about conspiracy theories, it's about poor explanations and selective thinking.

We'll never, ever know the truth.

[tw]

Jet fuel did not create temperatures to cause a collapse. Jet fuel was completely burned in minutes. But it ignited many flammable materials inside - especially tons of paper. It also blew fire protective materials off steel beams.

Anybody can see how long and hot that fire was. Eventually, exposed beams melted. In the WTC 7 collapse, the first collapsing beam was even identified after many super computer simulations.

NYC fire cheifs knew those towers may collapse - in a meeting held on the NW corner of that property. Orders went out long in advance to evacuate the buildings because heated steel beams would collapse. Unfortunately, retransmitters necessary to hear those orders could not contact many first responders.

Same concern existed with a Philadelphia skyscraper fire. A long discussion asked two questions. Was steel approaching melting points? And did heat compromise steel water pipes? In that case, heat damage to steel was significant; that the building had to be disassembled.

That conspiracy theory has been widely debunked by so many industry professionals. But it lives on among extremists who know but forget to first learn.

In this London fire, compromised structural beams were reinforced before body searches could commence in some locations.