Who does homosexuality hurt?

[Elspode]

I spoke with MTP at some length the other night about her position vis a vis parental responsibility. By the end of that conversation, I realized that I need to simply butt the hell out of that situation in her life. Her steadfastness in her position, and my core beliefs, are utterly and irreconcilably incompatible, and further conversation was going to result in one of us really disliking the other.

I hate it when that happens.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by jinx

Unless you meant something else by "how about you"?

Yes, what I meant was how would you handle her situation?

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Elspode

I spoke with MTP at some length the other night about her position vis a vis parental responsibility. By the end of that conversation, I realized that I need to simply butt the hell out of that situation in her life. Her steadfastness in her position, and my core beliefs, are utterly and irreconcilably incompatible, and further conversation was going to result in one of us really disliking the other.

I hate it when that happens.

Sorry to hear that Spode. You are one of the many people I really look up to in the Cellar, and believe have a great life ethic.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Elspode

I spoke with MTP at some length the other night about her position vis a vis parental responsibility. By the end of that conversation, I realized that I need to simply butt the hell out of that situation in her life. Her steadfastness in her position, and my core beliefs, are utterly and irreconcilably incompatible, and further conversation was going to result in one of us really disliking the other.

I hate it when that happens.

Eh. I understand and respect her opinion and position on the issue. I just think that those of us who are parents look at this issue differently. And that is not to say that everyone who is a parent agrees with me, only that the point of view differs from those who can only guess what it is like.

[Aliantha]

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of weeks with regard to what responsibility a parent has to a child after it becomes an adult.

I tried to think back to when I first left school and got myself a full time job. I know that it was at that point that my parents stopped paying for things for me, although they did drop me to the train station etc because we were quite a way away from it. That was until I could get my car running, which my dad helped me with. During this time I had to pay board. Then I moved out of home, at which point my parents still continued to love me and care about what i was doing, but it was the final separation. They didn't approve of the choice I'd made, and it hurt them badly (there was a man involved) but they still supported me emotionally after the initial pain and hurt had settled on both sides.

When the relationship fell apart, I moved back to my mum's house and stayed there for a couple of years. My brother was still living there, and Mum was very glad I'd come home, but I was living there more as a housemate than a child. I paid my share of the bills and bought food etc and just generally lived there as a share house situation. I would not have dreamed of allowing my Mum to support me at that stage.

I moved out again after meeting the father of my two sons and lived with him for about 5 years. Had the kids and then the relationship turned to crap. I left him and lived somewhere else for a while and went into business with my Dad. We did that for a couple of years till I went back to Uni. By this time Mum was getting a bit frail. She'd already had one major cancer episode, and she asked if I'd move back and help her with the house and in return she'd help with the kids while I was studying.

At no time was she supporting me in any way other than emotionally. I was always quite conscious of keeping the finances completely separate and it worked out really well for us.

I would like to think that my kids would always know they could return to their home if they needed to, or if it seemed like the logical thing for all of us, but I'd also like to think that they'd have learned that I wouldn't appreciate freeloading. I've worked hard all my life to do the right thing by the people that love me and I've always shown my parents the respect they deserved. I hope that when my kids are older and they realise how I've struggled for them at times, they'll appreciate me enough to show me the same respect.

In the end, i think that's what it comes down to for me. Most parents will put up with just about anything from their kids, as long as the kids are respectful about what they expect and that they're honest about what's going on in their lives.

Of course there are some parents who don't fit this catagory and I guess that's pretty sad, but communication is the key.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

Its funny: all ya'll who decided to rag on me for sayin my parents do not always know whats best for me, decided to overlook these two statements completely. So I'll say it again, and dumb it down for ya.
My parents wanted me to GET MARRIED AT 18! They think me getting a college degree is probably a waste of time. They believe my ex-boyfriend "owns a piece of my soul" because we had sex. That although I was terribly unhappy with him, and with him mainly because he was the first guy to ever pay attention to me, THAT I SHOULD STILL MARRY HIM AT 18! That I should get a SECOND job, and support HIM through school.

I spent FOUR YEARS on anti-depressants, not able to look up from my feet, hiding in my closet or a book. I was suicidal, and took pain-killers recreational. When I wasn't doing these things, I was goin to church or youth group, or praying to God. Trying to be a good Christian, and not understanding why my heart was still devoid, when I had all the "faith" I could muster. When I begged my parents; no I did not "throw a fit," I wrote out all of my arguments, asked them to sit down with me and tried to discuss the issue with them, it ended in literal begging, I begged them to let me stop youth group. I was endlessly harassed at it, not just by other kids, by the youth minister herself. They knew this, they believed it. They made me keep going even though 9 out of 10 times I came home in a complete wreck. Its hard now, not to tear up and talk about it. That was 5 or so years ago.

A couple of years ago, my mom actually told me: "I don't really believe you were ever depressed." That makes sense, since 3 separate doctors and a family counselor all believed it. My thoughts of suicide probably meant nothing either.

Those are a couple of examples, I don't feel like giving anymore, those are personal enough. So while, my parents have years of experience that makes their advise very valuable. They don't know what is best for me.

Sounds abusive. The cellar may be wrong on this one. This sounds like the patriarchs are getting the upper hand on a young girl. Sorry. Nuh uh.


The day I quit listening to my parents was the best of my life. Parents can be wrong. Dead wrong.

[DanaC]

I am in total agreement Cicero. As soon as I read that post my hackles went up.


As for parental responsibility: I don't think anybody here is arguing that parents have a financial responsibility to adult children. That said, my mum and Dad have at times stepped in and helped out when I've been broke. Between my mum, myself and my brother (and even J, who has remained to all intents and purposes a member of the family despite our having split long ago and him now having another partner) there is a shared sense of responsibility. None of us have much more than we need for the lives we're leading. We don't have large amounts of money saved, we don't have high wages. My bro and his wife are doing ok, he is self-employed, she's a nurse; mum's on a pension and works intermittently with asylum seekers and refugees. J, like me, is a full-time student with part time earnings alongside.

We all help each other out when needed. There was a spell of about a year where I was just perma-broke, really struggling; between them mum, J and my Bro got me through that. This year I've had an easier time of it (marginally:P) and have been able to return the favour somewhat.

When J and I split and I needed somewhere to go, there was no question but that I'd stay at mum's til I got a place sorted. In typical fashion, the first place I went when i walked out of the door was mum's. It always is. To me, that is what families are.

[Sundae]

I was thinking about this thread in relation to going to church.
I know it would make my parents very happy.
I am trying to be a "good daughter" and just feeling round the edges of what that means at the moment.

I can't change myself into my sister, I won't marry the the man I meet who is prepared to take me on and squeeze out a couple of children so that I fit the "normal" daughter template [ETA - my sister didn't do this either!]. My parents would not want me to - they'd be happy if I was happy and although they would prefer a conventional life for me, they would never want me to pretend.

BUT
Along with other, more practical things I can sort out and will sort out, I know it would make them happy if I went to church. Of course the trouble is, I am an atheist. I really, really don't believe it - any of it. So that would make me a massive hypocrite, yes?

But then I think - well, as long as I don't do anything more than attend - and I certainly wouldn't take coommunion - then I'm just doing something for them. They don't really understand that I don't believe. They have never argued with me (or my brother) about not following the faith, because deep down they are sure they are right and we are communing with God in our own way, and will follow our own paths to him (pretty laid back for Catholics actually).

I think I will try Christmas Day and see how much of a worm it makes me feel.

[classicman]

If you go on Christmas at least you get to sing some nice songs.

[Aliantha]

Midnight Mass is very popular here on Christmas...mainly because it's stinking hot in just about any church during the day here at that time of year...especially when the churches are filled with good time christians. lol

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of weeks with regard to what responsibility a parent has to a child after it becomes an adult.

I tried to think back to when I first left school and got myself a full time job. I know that it was at that point that my parents stopped paying for things for me, although they did drop me to the train station etc because we were quite a way away from it. That was until I could get my car running, which my dad helped me with. During this time I had to pay board. Then I moved out of home, at which point my parents still continued to love me and care about what i was doing, but it was the final separation. They didn't approve of the choice I'd made, and it hurt them badly (there was a man involved) but they still supported me emotionally after the initial pain and hurt had settled on both sides.

When the relationship fell apart, I moved back to my mum's house and stayed there for a couple of years. My brother was still living there, and Mum was very glad I'd come home, but I was living there more as a housemate than a child. I paid my share of the bills and bought food etc and just generally lived there as a share house situation. I would not have dreamed of allowing my Mum to support me at that stage.

I moved out again after meeting the father of my two sons and lived with him for about 5 years. Had the kids and then the relationship turned to crap. I left him and lived somewhere else for a while and went into business with my Dad. We did that for a couple of years till I went back to Uni. By this time Mum was getting a bit frail. She'd already had one major cancer episode, and she asked if I'd move back and help her with the house and in return she'd help with the kids while I was studying.

At no time was she supporting me in any way other than emotionally. I was always quite conscious of keeping the finances completely separate and it worked out really well for us.

I would like to think that my kids would always know they could return to their home if they needed to, or if it seemed like the logical thing for all of us, but I'd also like to think that they'd have learned that I wouldn't appreciate freeloading. I've worked hard all my life to do the right thing by the people that love me and I've always shown my parents the respect they deserved. I hope that when my kids are older and they realise how I've struggled for them at times, they'll appreciate me enough to show me the same respect.

In the end, i think that's what it comes down to for me. Most parents will put up with just about anything from their kids, as long as the kids are respectful about what they expect and that they're honest about what's going on in their lives.

Of course there are some parents who don't fit this catagory and I guess that's pretty sad, but communication is the key.

Nice post. I hope I can remain that supportive.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I am in total agreement Cicero. As soon as I read that post my hackles went up.


As for parental responsibility: I don't think anybody here is arguing that parents have a financial responsibility to adult children. That said, my mum and Dad have at times stepped in and helped out when I've been broke. Between my mum, myself and my brother (and even J, who has remained to all intents and purposes a member of the family despite our having split long ago and him now having another partner) there is a shared sense of responsibility. None of us have much more than we need for the lives we're leading. We don't have large amounts of money saved, we don't have high wages. My bro and his wife are doing ok, he is self-employed, she's a nurse; mum's on a pension and works intermittently with asylum seekers and refugees. J, like me, is a full-time student with part time earnings alongside.

We all help each other out when needed. There was a spell of about a year where I was just perma-broke, really struggling; between them mum, J and my Bro got me through that. This year I've had an easier time of it (marginally:P) and have been able to return the favour somewhat.

When J and I split and I needed somewhere to go, there was no question but that I'd stay at mum's til I got a place sorted. In typical fashion, the first place I went when i walked out of the door was mum's. It always is. To me, that is what families are.

I agree. I think your parents home should always be a last resort refuge if you are really in trouble and they should be there for you. But their role should be helping you get back on your feet and out on your own again. I have a brother who freeloaded on my parents for years til they finally told him to leave. I hope I never have to deal with that issue.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I know it would make them happy if I went to church. Of course the trouble is, I am an atheist. I really, really don't believe it - any of it. So that would make me a massive hypocrite, yes?

No, it wouldn't. I go to church with my in-laws, and they know I am an atheist. I go in respect of their beliefs, in family solidarity, and to be polite. Frankly, I'd feel like a worm if I didn't go! Give it a try -- you may end up feeling virtuous to have made your parents feel good.

Of course, YMMV.

[ZenGum]

This is a tricky issue. I don't believe in the Christian God, and am opposed to most organised churches as power organisations. Yet when my brother asked me to be a godfather to his daughter, I agreed, went to the church, and went through with the ceremony (and was discretely delighted when the baby screamed through the baptism).
It seemed a bit hypocritical to do this, but it seemed very petty and anal to refuse.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I don't believe in the Christian God, and am opposed to most organized churches as power organizations. Yet when my brother asked me to be a godfather to his daughter. ~snip~
It seemed a bit hypocritical to do this, but it seemed very petty and anal to refuse.

What role are you upholding as the Godfather? It seems very odd to me that you would be chosen to have that responsibility based upon your beliefs, or lack thereof.