View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes - Page 12

sugarpop · 01-31-2009, 10:46 AM

i love that movie.

Shawnee123 · 01-31-2009, 10:47 AM

Me too...must rent again.

classicman · 01-31-2009, 11:47 AM

PH - READ CAREFULLY - Where did I mention Hamas in my post? I specifically did not.

There is no win here for anyone. Whether anyone concedes land or whatever else the other side wants. They are all at fault. They don't know how to, nor (I believe) want to live in peace. Everything in their existence is based upon hate for the others.
*Note* I have not specified one side versus the other - its all of them it IS who and what they and their culture is based upon.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-31-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

PH - READ CAREFULLY - Where did I mention Hamas in my post? I specifically did not.

My fault. Sorry about that again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

There is no win here for anyone. Whether anyone concedes land or whatever else the other side wants. They are all at fault. They don't know how to, nor (I believe) want to live in peace. Everything in their existence is based upon hate for the others.

I disagree that these people do not want to live in peace. I believe they are just like everyone else. They want to live in peace under their own terms. The problem is that the terms directly contradict each other and that is why the violence will not stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Hamas's very charter clearly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. From Hamas point of view, the cease fire was made so that it could restock its supply of weapons, which it did by sea and through smuggling tunnels

It has been mentioned that Hamas would be willing to accept a two state solution on 1948 (I think??) lines. I do not believe that Hamas will pursue the total destruction of Israel because they know that is unrealistic unless a great power shift occurs. These comments are more than likely just hype to get a political and popular base.

Even if their goal was "pure", corruption would enter eventually. It always does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The basic truth is that if Hamas doesn't fight, Israel doesn't fight. Please acknowledge that basic truth.

I acknowledge that fact but that is only part of this situation. As I said in my earlier post, this is a power disparity problem, not a moral one. Israel has control of all food, water, and energy resources, has the backing of the strongest nation in the world, and have the economic power to hold its own. Hamas does not. White collared criminals do not need to use violence to hurt others but blue collared criminals do. Once again, it comes down to power. So even though your statement is true on a violence scale, it does not represent the situation as an entirety.

sugarpop · 01-31-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It has been mentioned that Hamas would be willing to accept a two state solution on 1948 (I think??) lines.

It is the pre- 1967 borders, when Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza.

Undertoad · 01-31-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Hamas cannot fight with any other method besides the one they are doing now and Israel cannot either. To blame either side for their methods of fighting is pointless, idealistic, and will not solve anything. Neither side will change.

Hamas's very charter clearly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. From Hamas point of view, the cease fire was made so that it could restock its supply of weapons, which it did by sea and through smuggling tunnels.The basic truth is that if Hamas doesn't fight, Israel doesn't fight. Please acknowledge that basic truth.

sugarpop · 01-31-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Hamas's very charter clearly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. From Hamas point of view, the cease fire was made so that it could restock its supply of weapons, which it did by sea and through smuggling tunnels.The basic truth is that if Hamas doesn't fight, Israel doesn't fight. Please acknowledge that basic truth.

I have heard that from Israel also, that their goal is the complete destruction of the Palestinian people. The radicals on both sides want mutual destruction. The sad part, there are LOTS of Palestinians, and also Israelis, who truly want peace. I seem to remember when Clinton was office, they were making headway. You seem to want to only blame Hamas, but the Israeli govt has just as much blame. It is the Zionist religion causing problems as much as Hamas.

Again, I really believe we should stop all funding to Israel. I'm hoping President Obama can help broker some kind of peace treaty.

TheMercenary · 01-31-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I have heard that from Israel also, that their goal is the complete destruction of the Palestinian people.

That is not the official stance of the Israeli government. It is the official stance of Hamas, the current government of the Palestinian People. You can't continue to put radical beliefs and statements by minority extremists on the government as a whole.

sugarpop · 01-31-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not the official stance of the Israeli government. It is the official stance of Hamas, the current government of the Palestinian People. You can't continue to put radical beliefs and statements by minority extremists on the government as a whole.

There are some extremists in the Israeli govt who want this. Do they all? Probably not. But to think there aren't some is gullible. Zionist thought is to completely take over the country.

TheMercenary · 01-31-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

There are some extremists in the Israeli govt who want this. Do they all? Probably not. But to think there aren't some is gullible. Zionist thought is to completely take over the country.

It is not the official policy of the Israeli government. Their solution is the 2 State Solution and they are waiting for Hamas to agree to their right to exist as a country. Extremists and Ziontists do not run the Israeli government nor do they control the Army.

Undertoad · 01-31-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I have heard that from Israel also, that their goal is the complete destruction of the Palestinian people.

Citation needed

Quote:

Again, I really believe we should stop all funding to Israel.

The bulk of the aid started, along with military aid to Egypt, during the 1979 peace negotiations. Without the aid, Israel had no motivation to give up the Sinai peninsula, with its oil, and its strategic military positions from which Israel had been attacked several times. But, you know, whatever.

sugarpop · 01-31-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Citation needed

It was on Frontline a couple of years ago. I don't remember the name of the program, but you can go online to pbs.org/frontline and watch any of their shows. They are all available online.

Quote:

The bulk of the aid started, along with military aid to Egypt, during the 1979 peace negotiations. Without the aid, Israel had no motivation to give up the Sinai peninsula, with its oil, and its strategic military positions from which Israel had been attacked several times. But, you know, whatever.

It doesn't matter how it started, I'm talking about the situation now, today. If we quit funding them and started brokering a peace treaty, along with other countries (both Middle Eastern and European), maybe they would be forced to work it out eventually.

classicman · 01-31-2009, 12:10 PM

Undertoad · 01-31-2009, 01:41 PM

750 trucks per day into Gaza before Hamas was elected. All they have to do is say they want peace and they will become prosperous merely by location. Israel would love to be a partner in peace and prosperity.

They can build missiles or they can build tractors. It's completely up to them.

piercehawkeye45 · 02-01-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

750 trucks per day into Gaza before Hamas was elected. All they have to do is say they want peace and they will become prosperous merely by location. Israel would love to be a partner in peace and prosperity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not the official stance of the Israeli government. It is the official stance of Hamas, the current government of the Palestinian People. You can't continue to put radical beliefs and statements by minority extremists on the government as a whole.

I said this many times before but no one listens. Politicians are liars. We acknowledge this in the United States but when an Iranian or Hamas leader lies to get public support, no one can accept it.

Though, I think this is an over simplistic view on the situation. There are many more forces than this.

Quote:

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html

Another source:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24235665/

Hell I'll just google it for you:
http://www.google.com/search?client=...=Google+Search

Now lets look at this from a logical standpoint. Hamas is dependent on the Palestinian population's support. We can greatly assume that both Israelis and Palestinians want peace on their terms. So, if a peace can be reached that the Palestinian population accepts, Hamas will be forced to accept as well. So technically, even if Hamas is lying about the 1967 borders, which could be possible, it won't matter if the vast majority of Palestinians accept a truce because they will kick Hamas out.

This is an over-simplistic view though. The situation is not as simple as "Both sides agree to peace and then it will magically happen".

01-31-2009, 10:47 AM	#2
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Me too...must rent again. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

01-31-2009, 11:47 AM	#3
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	PH - READ CAREFULLY - Where did I mention Hamas in my post? I specifically did not. There is no win here for anyone. Whether anyone concedes land or whatever else the other side wants. They are all at fault. They don't know how to, nor (I believe) want to live in peace. Everything in their existence is based upon hate for the others. Note I have not specified one side versus the other - its all of them it IS who and what they and their culture is based upon. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-31-2009, 12:10 PM	#13
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	__________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-31-2009, 10:46 AM	#1
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	i love that movie.

01-31-2009, 01:41 PM	#14
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	750 trucks per day into Gaza before Hamas was elected. All they have to do is say they want peace and they will become prosperous merely by location. Israel would love to be a partner in peace and prosperity. They can build missiles or they can build tractors. It's completely up to them.

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