View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by tranquill

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

Why? Israel routinely tries to censor/control information about what they do. Don't all governments who engage in war?

[classicman]

Yes, of course - every single entity that engages in war censors as much as possible - In fact most of what you hear that isn't censored is intentionally leaked and misleading.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

He said, she said. Who struck first. They all need to STFU & start over like adults. There is so much friggin blame to go around its pointless to mention it.
The problem as some here have pointed out, is that they are teaching their children HATE.
Nothing will change until that does.

They are both teaching hate, by example.

It's like this, a prisoner from GITMO was released by the Bush administration awhile back, and now he is apparently an al qaeda leader in Yemen. This man had claimed he was innocent when he was captured, but he was detained for years, with no trial. So the question is, what if he actually WAS innocent, but because we detained him for so long (and probably tortured him), and he grew to hate us so much, did we actually create an al qaeda leader?

I see a very real resemblance here with us/Iraq and Israel/Palestine - big strong country with an army, fighting a resistance movement. Many Americans hate the Iraqi insurgency, but did we not create that hate ourselves, by our actions in THEIR country? (OK, so we are not colonizing or staying, but we are certainly occupying, and have in some cases acted atrociously.)

[Shawnee123]

Wag the Dog.

[sugarpop]

i love that movie.

[Shawnee123]

Me too...must rent again.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

He said, she said. Who struck first.

Lets look at the facts.

A six month ceasefire occurred on June 19th, 2008 between Israel and Hamas on the conditions that Hamas would stop firing rockets into Israel and Israel would allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is very much needed.

Lets look at the stats. The following is a graph showing rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza.



We can clearly see that Hamas made a very good attempt to stop rocket fire into Israel from the start of the ceasefire until November. The numbers on wikipedia say rocket fire dropped 98% and keep in mind their are other factions besides Hamas in Gaza and have taken responsibility for a few of those rocket fires while the others remain unclaimed.

On the other hand, during this time, humanitarian aid into Gaza increased only 20%. Yes, there are legitimate reasons for Israel to block off humanitarian aid but they did not live up to their side of the ceasefire as Hamas did.

Now that brings us to November, when rocket and mortar attacks increased dramatically. What happened during this period?

On November 4th, Israeli intelligence got hold of information saying that a kidnapping of an Israeli soldier was going to take place through a tunnel between Gaza and Israel. To prevent this, Israel when into Gaza and killed six militants. After this event, we can see a very sharp increase in rocket fire.

So with this information we can come to conclusions.

• Neither Israel nor Hamas truly respected or lived up to the ceasefire
• The reason for Hamas attacks are because of the blockade and siege. November 4th was a catalysis, but the ceasefire was obviously not going to last.
• Israel was the first to officially break the ceasefire. November 4th was a very big mistake on their part. This is also assuming Israeli intelligence was correct.

They all need to STFU & start over like adults. There is so much friggin blame to go around its pointless to mention it.The problem as some here have pointed out, is that they are teaching their children HATE.

Besides the irony of saying it is pointless to mention blame and then blaming Hamas for teaching children to hate, we really do need to change our method of viewing this situation. This problem can never be solved on moral philosophy, both sides will always think they are the morally correct side, and should be viewed as a power issue.

For example, the method of fighting by both Hamas and Israel should be seen as immoral but necessary because of the power disparity between the two sides. Hamas cannot fight with any other method besides the one they are doing now and Israel cannot either. To blame either side for their methods of fighting is pointless, idealistic, and will not solve anything. Neither side will change.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

It's like this, a prisoner from GITMO was released by the Bush administration awhile back, and now he is apparently an al qaeda leader in Yemen. This man had claimed he was innocent when he was captured, but he was detained for years, with no trial. So the question is, what if he actually WAS innocent, but because we detained him for so long (and probably tortured him), and he grew to hate us so much, did we actually create an al qaeda leader?

Actually, we've gone over that one in detail here, and proved in two posts that he was a jihadi before capture, by his own words.

I see a very real resemblance here with us/Iraq and Israel/Palestine - big strong country with an army, fighting a resistance movement. Many Americans hate the Iraqi insurgency, but did we not create that hate ourselves, by our actions in THEIR country? (OK, so we are not colonizing or staying, but we are certainly occupying, and have in some cases acted atrociously.)

No. If you had noticed what the Iraqi insurgency used to do, before we crushed it, you would not be trying to develop this narrative.

They killed everybody, beheading the children and even shooting the livestock, and buried them in shallow graves.

It is once again the necessary violence of mob rule. The ones with the biggest guns and the will to use them against innocents, are the ones who get to run things. This is unacceptable and will only lead to more violence. The old policy was to support it if the end leader was friendly with the west. THAT is the corrupt ideology you should be fighting against as it only leads to more death and destruction.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Actually, we've gone over that one in detail here, and proved in two posts that he was a jihadi before capture, by his own words.

OK. I don't know whether he was or not, but that analogy still holds. We are creating terrorists by our actions.

No. If you had noticed what the Iraqi insurgency used to do, before we crushed it, you would not be trying to develop this narrative.

They killed everybody, beheading the children and even shooting the livestock, and buried them in shallow graves.

It is once again the necessary violence of mob rule. The ones with the biggest guns and the will to use them against innocents, are the ones who get to run things. This is unacceptable and will only lead to more violence. The old policy was to support it if the end leader was friendly with the west. THAT is the corrupt ideology you should be fighting against as it only leads to more death and destruction.

We never should have been there in the first place. We drew first blood. And I agree with your last statement, to the degree that we should not do business with governments that are corrupt and abuse their own people.

[classicman]

PH - READ CAREFULLY - Where did I mention Hamas in my post? I specifically did not.

There is no win here for anyone. Whether anyone concedes land or whatever else the other side wants. They are all at fault. They don't know how to, nor (I believe) want to live in peace. Everything in their existence is based upon hate for the others.
*Note* I have not specified one side versus the other - its all of them it IS who and what they and their culture is based upon.

[Undertoad]

Hamas cannot fight with any other method besides the one they are doing now and Israel cannot either. To blame either side for their methods of fighting is pointless, idealistic, and will not solve anything. Neither side will change.

Hamas's very charter clearly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. From Hamas point of view, the cease fire was made so that it could restock its supply of weapons, which it did by sea and through smuggling tunnels.The basic truth is that if Hamas doesn't fight, Israel doesn't fight. Please acknowledge that basic truth.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Lets look at the facts.

Besides the irony of saying it is pointless to mention blame and then blaming Hamas for teaching children to hate, we really do need to change our method of viewing this situation. This problem can never be solved . . .

Please retract that first statement as I intentionally did not specify Hamas at all. YOU read that into the post...interesting.

Your last line was best *BOLD MINE*

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Neither side will change.

Agreed

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

OK. I don't know whether he was or not

No no, don't just gloss over that one because it hurts your approach. Think on a straight line here. We proved it by his own words. You now know that he was. This is an important data point.

, but that analogy still holds. We are creating terrorists by our actions.

That's a common notion, what is your proof of it?

We never should have been there in the first place. We drew first blood.

Then where are the Bosnian terrorists we created?

Where are the Panamanian terrorists we created?

Where are the Grenadan terrorists we created?

Where in holy hell are the Vietnamese terrorists we created? There had better be 500,000 of them, or your narrative is crashing and burning badly.

[classicman]

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

PH - READ CAREFULLY - Where did I mention Hamas in my post? I specifically did not.

My fault. Sorry about that again.

Originally Posted by classicman

There is no win here for anyone. Whether anyone concedes land or whatever else the other side wants. They are all at fault. They don't know how to, nor (I believe) want to live in peace. Everything in their existence is based upon hate for the others.

I disagree that these people do not want to live in peace. I believe they are just like everyone else. They want to live in peace under their own terms. The problem is that the terms directly contradict each other and that is why the violence will not stop.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Hamas's very charter clearly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. From Hamas point of view, the cease fire was made so that it could restock its supply of weapons, which it did by sea and through smuggling tunnels

It has been mentioned that Hamas would be willing to accept a two state solution on 1948 (I think??) lines. I do not believe that Hamas will pursue the total destruction of Israel because they know that is unrealistic unless a great power shift occurs. These comments are more than likely just hype to get a political and popular base.

Even if their goal was "pure", corruption would enter eventually. It always does.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The basic truth is that if Hamas doesn't fight, Israel doesn't fight. Please acknowledge that basic truth.

I acknowledge that fact but that is only part of this situation. As I said in my earlier post, this is a power disparity problem, not a moral one. Israel has control of all food, water, and energy resources, has the backing of the strongest nation in the world, and have the economic power to hold its own. Hamas does not. White collared criminals do not need to use violence to hurt others but blue collared criminals do. Once again, it comes down to power. So even though your statement is true on a violence scale, it does not represent the situation as an entirety.