View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Yes. Iran supports Hamas. US supports Israel.

Kind of like a mini cold war...

Exactly.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I don't buy it. You have defended the actions of Hamas repeatedly.

So have I. But you know me, and you know I don't support Hamas, exactly...

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by DanaC

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

None of us are there. We are all outsiders to this bloody mess. The news we watch is skewed (whichever direction) and the situation so mind-numbingly complicated with politics, personality, vengeance and power (on both sides) that we cannot hope to have a clear picture until the history books are being written in fifty years time, or a hundred.

It is good that pierce will come here and state the other side of the argument. Were it not for Pierce and a couple of others, we would only see one side here. That cannot help anybody's understanding. In such a fraught setting, there are no clean hands. All we are doing here is arguing gradations of blood and dirt. Those who are truly friends to Israel should hear what the Palestinians are screaming. Those truly friend to Palestine, should listen to Israeli cries.

It is not yet time for them to hear each other. Those of us outside and removed have a duty to hear them both.




And that really is the last thing I post in this thread.

Well said. And the people we should actually be listening to, are the ones in the middle. There are LOTS of Israeli Jews who do not support what their government does, just as there are lots of Palestinians who do not support what Hamas does.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Good enough. I respect that. Defend the terrorist organizations. I would be interested in your defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I defend what I believe to be true. It has been shown that Hamas stopped firing rockets after the ceasefire and that Israel did not fully open trade routes in response. Hamas has admitted that they started firing rockets because of the blockade (November 4th is just a catyalist). Hamas has admitted that they will be willing to accept a two state solution on certain terms. These are facts that can be backed by evidence. I am not supporting Hamas by making those statements, or even purposely defending a resistance movement/terrorist group, I am laying out the facts and what I believe.

But, as I said many times before, those arguments don't really mean much to me besides proving that Israel has some fault in this conflict as well. In reality, I see both Israel and Hamas as two groups that are forced into situations where they will naturally choose the "immoral" route, the difference being that Israel has massive amounts of power while Hamas does not. Both sides are willing to kill civilians. Both sides have made decisions that have led to further conflict. Both sides will fight until their terms are met.

Going back to the choice argument, one can say that one side does have a choice but those are usually idealistic at best and will only accomplish goals that the person who is speaking wants. If one thinks that peace should occur right now with the current situation, Palestine (Hamas to be more specific) will naturally be blamed. If one thinks that peace should occur with in a situation that is more favorable to Palestinians, Israel will naturally be blamed.

[Undertoad]

Hamas has admitted that they will be willing to accept a two state solution on certain terms.

I urge you to read the Hamas charter. It starts about a quarter of the way down the page, with the heading "The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement".

After you do, you will understand, and you will never make the above statement again.

[piercehawkeye45]

You are right if we are defining Hamas as the movement that existed over 20 years ago. The PLO was the leading resistance movement for over 20 years and now they are seen as "being in bed" with Israel by many of the hardliners.

Corruption will overcome Hamas in time and as I said earlier, they are dependent on the population around them. Eitherway, Hamas is reactionary and easily replaceable. I would be more scared of what comes after Hamas (another party or evolved group) then what it is now.

[Undertoad]

Oh holy crap. Then go and fucking read the Current Positions section, about a tenth of the way down the page.

"We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity" stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009.

[piercehawkeye45]

Yeah? So we have two contradictory quotes. How can we tell what the official position of Hamas is? And by official, I mean what they will do not what they say. These politicians should never be trusted.

Hamas is most likely littered with scattered views. Some will be willing to accept 1967 borders, some will never accept Israel as a state. Which side has the most power in the end is which matters.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Yeah? So we have two contradictory quotes. How can we tell what the official position of Hamas is? And by official, I mean what they will do not what they say. These politicians should never be trusted.

Hamas is most likely littered with scattered views. Some will be willing to accept 1967 borders, some will never accept Israel as a state. Which side has the most power in the end is which matters.

Those with the most guns makes those decisions. Hamas has made that point quite evident. Peace with Israel is not one of thier goals. How to get the Israelis to stop bombing the hell out of them is a short term goal IMHO. And they will say any thing to the international press to do it. Other than that my expectations for them to seek a unified peace plan is very low to non-existant.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Those with the most guns makes those decisions. Hamas has made that point quite evident. Peace with Israel is not one of thier goals. How to get the Israelis to stop bombing the hell out of them is a short term goal IMHO. And they will say any thing to the international press to do it. Other than that my expectations for them to seek a unified peace plan is very low to non-existant.

And peace with Palestine is obviously not one of Israel's goal either.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And peace with Palestine is obviously not one of Israel's goal either.

ok I'll bite - Why do you say that?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

ok I'll bite - Why do you say that?

Because. They consistently do things that are not in the spirit of peace. Israel has broken ceasefires as much as Hamas has. Israelis bulldozed Palestinian houses and claimed the land for themselves so they could build more settlements. Israelis arrest Palestinians and put them in camps. They block food. They make it almost impossible for Palestinians to move around. etc etc etc.

As I've said before, both sides are at fault. We really need to get out of it (stop funding Israel) and let them solve it on their own, with their own money. Either that, or force Israel to be more reasonable.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Sugarpop, you're trying to tell us the Israelis have no right to survive. Stop such genocidal nonsense yesterday if not sooner. Antisemitism rubs Adolf Hitler's runny mental shit all over your soul, and you can't get clean.

The Palestinians are being used as catspaws by the Muslim nations in the Middle East to fight a proxy war with Israel, over a land the Jews were in before ever there was a Muslim. If it was just between the Palestinians and the Israeli Jews, the fight would have been over by the 1956 Suez Crisis. Blame Jordan, Iran, Egypt and Syria: these are the nations that either still don't want peace, valuing their feud with the Jews over any peace and prosperity, or acted that way at one time -- Egypt's cleaned up its act most.

Consequently to all this, my sympathy for the poor Palestinians remains just about zip. They have to hang all their assholes, yesterday. They aren't doing that. What do you say about people who refuse to hang their assholes? Does the idea that asshole-sympathizing may be in play here come in at all, do you suppose?

[xoxoxoBruce]

It's raining.

[classicman]

As Allison and I drove around, lost at times, we came across Chinese laborers. She said the Palestinians are angry because the Chinese and other foreign laborers imported from abroad have taken the construction jobs that once belonged to the Palestinians. After all of the suicide bombings and other attacks, Gaza has been essentially sealed to stem the violence, a tactic which has been effective except for the rocket strikes.

Yet world sympathy seems to rest with the terrorists, and Israel is condemned for ‘trapping’ the Palestinians inside Gaza and for any retaliation for the missile attacks.

Europe, for instance, was nearly unanimous in its condemnation of Israel after the Israeli Defense Forces finally counter-attacked in Operation Cast Lead.

I considered going to Gaza, to hear the other side of the story, but after having seen so many terrorists attacks up close, there seemed little value in taking such a chance with my life, just to hear ramble from a leadership that condones and executes terrorism and launches thousands of rockets at school kids.

It makes no sense to risk life and limb only to allow people who intentionally target children to talk through my pen. Not until they stop the terrorism. Those members of the press who transmute Hamas’s crocodile tears into ink only exacerbate the disease.

It simply does not make sense for us to support a Palestinian state, when at every turn they demonstrate that they will simply become more powerful, richer terrorists, with longer range rockets.

Very good Bruce- another somber read from a very credible resource.