Lebanon voted against their fascists; Britain elected a few - Page 2

Happy Monkey · 06-16-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I wish we had a law like that. We have had 3 hate killings over the past few weeks.

More than that since the inauguration (blog link, with collection of news links).

sugarpop · 06-16-2009, 07:24 PM

HOLY CRAP BATMAN! I had no idea there had been that many! I had completely forgotten about that nutcase who thought Obama was going to take his guns, so he killed those cops, but I don't remember hearing about the other ones. And that makes Napolitano's brief even more prescient. I wonder if anyone who spoke badly about her for that will apologize. Probably not.

Bullitt · 06-16-2009, 07:37 PM

1. Do we have figures detailing if and by how much "hate crime" rates have risen since Obama was inaugurated or elected? And are we going by the inauguration date or the election date?

2. Stats 101: Correlation does not mean causation. Just because ice cream sales are rising and so are drownings doesn't mean one influences the other. Summer coming around is the lurking variable. I have a hard time accepting such a broad cause/effect like that (Obama elected = more "hate crimes").

**Disclaimer: not a fan of the "hate crime" label to begin with. A murder is a murder and the perpetrator should be punished accordingly. Having this dubious label of "hate crime",and more strict punishments for them, I would argue does nothing to deter further crimes with racial, religious, socio-economic, etc. motivation.

sugarpop · 06-16-2009, 07:44 PM

I understand your point Bullitt, but I respectfully disagree. I think hate crimes are worse and much more dangerous to society as a whole. I also think some of those groups, like radical pro-life fanatics that incite people to kill abortion doctors and personnel should be classified as terrorist groups and treated as such. That means all those people spewing hate and calling for death should be treated just like an Islamic terrorist group because there is no difference. (Not all pro-lifers, just the radical ones.)

DanaC · 06-16-2009, 07:46 PM

Murder is a crime against an individual. Hate crime is a crime against an individual and against the race/group they belong to

classicman · 06-16-2009, 09:26 PM

Great points Bullitt - similar to the FACT that more people that own dishwashers have car accidents.

piercehawkeye45 · 06-17-2009, 07:55 AM

The idea of hate crime rising since Obama's election is reasonable even if not proven. Many KKK members did vote for Obama for similar reasons.

classicman · 06-17-2009, 08:22 AM

Well he certainly wasn't endorsed by the KKK. Here
Crime rates rise in a bad economy and fall in better economic times. just sayin.

Happy Monkey · 06-17-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt

**Disclaimer: not a fan of the "hate crime" label to begin with. A murder is a murder and the perpetrator should be punished accordingly.

Murder is a crime, and threatening is a crime. Murder as a threat is two crimes, together called a hate crime.

classicman · 06-17-2009, 06:17 PM

I would say that a "Hate crime" is better defined as targeting a victim because of his or her membership in an identifiable group, most commonly, but not always racial.

I don't think it has anything to do with murder as a whole, nor as a threat. Nor do I believe it therefore becomes two crimes. A hate crime certainly need not be murder either.

DanaC · 06-17-2009, 06:25 PM

True enough Classic. It isn't that it becomes two crimes. It's that the nature of the crime changes.

Happy Monkey · 06-17-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

I would say that a "Hate crime" is better defined as targeting a victim because of his or her membership in an identifiable group, most commonly, but not always racial.

I don't think it has anything to do with murder as a whole, nor as a threat. Nor do I believe it therefore becomes two crimes. A hate crime certainly need not be murder either.

It doesn't have to be murder, but it is a threat to the other members of the group. It could be a threat via vandalism, assault, battery, murder, etc. Whatever the base crime is, it is compounded with the threat to the group.

It could even be threat via threat; threatening a group by threatening an individual.

classicman · 06-17-2009, 07:02 PM

There needn't be a threat either. just a malicious act against a group or individual because of his/her/their commonality, be it sex, race, religion whatever...

DanaC · 06-17-2009, 07:08 PM

For me, it ceases to be just a crime against the individual and becomes a crime against wider society.

classicman · 06-17-2009, 08:41 PM

Of course it does Dana - Any rational decent person would agree with that.... even me

06-16-2009, 07:37 PM	#18
Bullitt This is a fully functional babe lair Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,324	1. Do we have figures detailing if and by how much "hate crime" rates have risen since Obama was inaugurated or elected? And are we going by the inauguration date or the election date? 2. Stats 101: Correlation does not mean causation. Just because ice cream sales are rising and so are drownings doesn't mean one influences the other. Summer coming around is the lurking variable. I have a hard time accepting such a broad cause/effect like that (Obama elected = more "hate crimes"). *Disclaimer: not a fan of the "hate crime" label to begin with. A murder is a murder and the perpetrator should be punished accordingly. Having this dubious label of "hate crime",and more strict punishments for them, I would argue does nothing to deter further crimes with racial, religious, socio-economic, etc. motivation. __________________ Kiss my white Irish ass. Last edited by Bullitt; 06-16-2009 at 07:43 PM.*

06-16-2009, 09:26 PM	#21
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Great points Bullitt - similar to the FACT that more people that own dishwashers have car accidents. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-17-2009, 07:55 AM	#22
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	The idea of hate crime rising since Obama's election is reasonable even if not proven. Many KKK members did vote for Obama for similar reasons. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

06-17-2009, 08:22 AM	#23
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Well he certainly wasn't endorsed by the KKK. Here Crime rates rise in a bad economy and fall in better economic times. just sayin. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-17-2009, 06:17 PM	#25
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	I would say that a "Hate crime" is better defined as targeting a victim because of his or her membership in an identifiable group, most commonly, but not always racial. I don't think it has anything to do with murder as a whole, nor as a threat. Nor do I believe it therefore becomes two crimes. A hate crime certainly need not be murder either. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-16-2009, 07:24 PM	#17
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	HOLY CRAP BATMAN! I had no idea there had been that many! I had completely forgotten about that nutcase who thought Obama was going to take his guns, so he killed those cops, but I don't remember hearing about the other ones. And that makes Napolitano's brief even more prescient. I wonder if anyone who spoke badly about her for that will apologize. Probably not.

06-16-2009, 07:44 PM	#19
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	I understand your point Bullitt, but I respectfully disagree. I think hate crimes are worse and much more dangerous to society as a whole. I also think some of those groups, like radical pro-life fanatics that incite people to kill abortion doctors and personnel should be classified as terrorist groups and treated as such. That means all those people spewing hate and calling for death should be treated just like an Islamic terrorist group because there is no difference. (Not all pro-lifers, just the radical ones.)

06-17-2009, 07:02 PM	#28
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	There needn't be a threat either. just a malicious act against a group or individual because of his/her/their commonality, be it sex, race, religion whatever... __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt Last edited by classicman; 06-17-2009 at 08:40 PM.

06-17-2009, 08:41 PM	#30
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Of course it does Dana - Any rational decent person would agree with that.... even me __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

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