50 vs. 3

[garnet]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unfortunately they chose to express their anger towards people who were paying their respects to the long dead victims of genocide and as such their vitriol was at best misplaced and at worst revoltingly insensitive.

They probably went there with the intent of causing trouble. I just can't even picture the scene--when I was there we walking around like zombies, just staring. It was almost too much to take in. It doesn't get much more insensitive than what these guys did.

[DanaC]

Possible. Equally possible is that this is a little bit of noise created to back up Sharon's statements about French anti semitism recently. Or the incident happened.....doesnt mean it happened as that report stated. It is interesting to me that this was from the Jerusalem post. I have no real knowledge of the publication but my guess is it is pro zionist in nature. I also notice that whilst the people interviewd claimed the remarks were anti semitic in nature the only ones they published in detail were anti Israeli not anti semitic. I very much doubt these three people ( how three people can be described as a "gang" when facing a crowd of 50 I dont know) went to Auschwitz puely to cause trouble and upset Jewishfolk. More likely is that they were there to pay there respects or pay a visit to a place of historical interest and were offended by the draped Israeli flag which they percieved as a) rampant nationalism in a place which should not be tainted further with Nationalism of the present day or b) they saw the flag as indicative of political zionism which offended them because they see that as laying claim to the grief of Aushwitz, something they themselves may feel connected to. Many people in Europe are very angry with the Israeli state machine and the way political zionism is being painted as the only way to be truly Jewish. Many people are also angry at the actions of the Israeli army in Gaza and percieve those actions to be tantamount to a new form of fascism in which case the overt presence of the Israeli flag which exists currently as a symbol of that abuse, may have seemed highly offensive.

Having said that it was clearly an innappropriate response and led those people to do a fair impression of the kind of ugliness seen in racists and anti semites

[Radar]

Sorry Dana but 99.999% of Jews are Zionists which means if you say you hate Zionists, you're just trying to mask the fact that you hate Jews; even if you are one.. I'm not Jewish. I'm an atheist and a proud Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist. To claim they don't have such a right is to claim that nobody has a right to exist.

[wolf]

I imagine that if the 50 did fight back, it would have been picked up immediately by the European press and the message flashed worldwide "CRAZED JEWS RIOT AT CONCENTRATION CAMP TOUR, INJURING THREE FRENCH TOURISTS STANDING NEARBY."

This story is carried by the Jerusalem Post .. any other news services pick it up? It's not exactly hot news in the rest of the world, most likely.

Oh, and antisemites go to Auschwitz to mourn too ... they mourn not having quite finished.

[Undertoad]

They don't need to find an attack to back up Sharon's statements. The attacks in France are double what they were last year.

[99 44/100% pure]

Originally Posted by Radar

Sorry Dana but 99.999% of Jews are Zionists . . .

Do you have data on that? Do you mean worldwide? In Israel? In the US? By 'zionist' do you mean the existence of Isreal as a 'place of return' for Jewish people, or are you defending the existence of Isreal as a post WWII geopolitical entity?

[Trilby]

UT-that picture makes me sick. I don't even know how to respond to that much hatred...

[DanaC]

Not all and certainly not 99.9% of all jews worldwide support political zionism as exhibited by the State of Israel in it's actions to date. That would be like saying all Americans are fundamentalist christians or neo conservatives. Note by the way I use the term political zionism. What Israel engages in is more than merely the propogation and maintenance of a zionist state, it engages in political activity as any state must and the character of that poltical face has been termed zionist. Perhaps another term which could be employed would be Zionist Imperialism. The key there is Imperialism. Maybe the word Zionist should not carry such negative connotations .....but attached to the political philosophy it currently is attached to the word cannot help but carry some of that poltical baggage now. Many Jews do not support that particular poltical creed. Perhaps they even resent the way the word Zion and zionist have been hijacked by the political right and now refer less to Jewishness than to a political identity.

UT, good point, you are right attacks are up greatly. It just struck me as odd timing given the recent furore over Sharon and his invitation to French Jews. But again I reiterate there is a differece between anti Semitic and anti Israeli activity. That picture is clearly portraying the results of anti semitism atit's rawest and most revoltingly clear. That sort of thing is exactly why I get so annoyed when I hear any mainstream politician who criticises Israel being labelled as anti semitic. Critiism of Israel or sympathy for Palestine do not equate to anti semitism. When we take our eye off the ball and allow such things to be played with in the political games of statesmanship it becomes harder to police the actual hatemongers. We need to be clear who the real anti semites are because they all the more dangerous to us if we dont.

[Undertoad]

Okay. But if you reject the activities of the Zionist state for no obvious reason other than that it's mostly Jews, what then? Because when you complain about a defensive wall, which has worked to prevent hundreds of deaths on both sides and may possibly end the intifada, isn't that being a little too obvious about it? Are there any other countries that wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing?

[DanaC]

There arent many countries where someone is allowed to builfd a ruddy great wall through other people's land no. The idea that that wall is somehow saving lives on either side is frankly laughable. Not just laughable, its illegal in international law and is deemed beyond the pale by everyone except America and main body of the Jewish diaspora. Israel is a powerful nationstate who is imposing their will over a defeated and humiliated people. They have driven palestinians away from their homes into permanent refugee camps and then settled their own people onto the land the palestinians have vacated. When that happens elsewhere in the world ,the rest of the international community including America cry "ethnic cleansing". Only when Israel engages in these activities does America hold up it's hands and say "well how else can they protect themselves?"

And people arent necessarily rejecting Zionism or Israel because it's made up of Jews but because they object to the zionist poltical goals and the manner in which these poltical goals are being achieved.

[wolf]

East and West Germany took down their wall when the didn't need it any more. I expect this one will come down eventually too.

[Undertoad]

You mean the "other people's land" across which they were invaded multiple times over several decades until they just simply captured it, after warnings that they would, in a defensive war in which they were invaded again?

It makes the Faulklands look like invading Poland.

[DanaC]

"You mean the land across which they were invaded multiple times until they just simply captured it in a defensive war in which they were invaded again?"

Like most wars there are several ways to define it and many ways to tell the story. That is just one of them.

[DanaC]

"It makes the Faulklands look like invading Poland."

The British were involved in the Faulklands at the request of the falklanders. That was a war for self determnination. Hitler was not in poland at the request of the Polish. The Israeli state has no business being in Palestine.

[Radar]

The wall is not being built on someone else's land. It's being built on the legitimate borders of the land that Israel legitimately owns and obtained honestly. And 99.999% of the Jews in the entire world are Zionists meaning they support the right of Israel to exist, and the fact that Israel honestly owns all of the land they currently occupy. This includes the land they were given by it's previous owners (the UK), and the land they won when they were attacked without cause in 1967.

I love how these anti-Jewish people claim to love Jews but hate Zionism. It's like saying, I love Mexicans, I just hate Mexico and want all the Mexicans to leave. These people cry about some people who were displaced nearly 60 years ago, but neglect to mention the 2 or 3 million Jews who were displaced in Arab nations at this time and who also lost thier homes, businesses, etc. They neglect to mention the fact that in 1948 five arab nations told Arab people to evacuate the Israel so they could kill each and every last Jew.

Not only is all of the land Israel currently occupies legitimately owned by Israel, All of Jordan was once part of Israel.