Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

No one...Two examples of how a presidential candidate loses my support quickly. How two people with potential for great leadership abilities so undermine their own credibility.

Slagmeister, indeed.

Someday you may actually have to support someone publically, and then you'll soon feel *so* betrayed by how they "lied" to you.

Fortunately you're the arbiter of "reality", "logic" and "reason".

McCain has "stood his ground" so well with "Christian Zionists" lately that he's been playing kissy-face with Pat Robertson and Bob Jones University...so you might want to start preparing your catchphrases, epithets and denunciations now; wouldn't want to be rushed during the convention season.

[headsplice]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

As the construction would suggest, effective at being Chief Executive.

Thanks for telling me my response, so I know how not to respond. You rock.
I can see why people would think that he's an effective Chief Executive. Of course, my immediate response is: Show me something, anything, in his WHOLE career as president that he's done correctly.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

Thanks for telling me my response, so I know how not to respond. You rock.
I can see why people would think that he's an effective Chief Executive. Of course, my immediate response is: Show me something, anything, in his WHOLE career as president that he's done correctly.

My point being that Bush Bashers as a group are tiresomely predictable. There's little point in discuissing what he's done well, because it's an article of faith for you that he's never done anything well...as the framing of your challenge indicates.

So who's your favorite for '08? More specific than "Anybody But Bush", now; you can't fall back on that this time around.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by glatt

I agree. And I think we'd be in much better shape if Bush had done pretty much nothing after 9/11....Osama is still free...

OBL is one hell of a lot less free than he would have been following your proposed strategy. Nor do I believe for one second that "being nice" would result in there being fewer terrorists.

[headsplice]

I understand that it's tiresome to hear the same complaints, time after time after time after time. I get tired of making them when the same shit happens on a different day. I've never had anyone answer my question, even unsatisfactorily: what's this Administration done right?
NOTE: I didn't ask what he's done well, I asked what he's done CORRECTLY. I realize that's, potentially extremely subjective. So, let me lay out a specific, and I hope non-biased, definition: correctly: set out a policy with a specific set of goals that he's acheived 85% of, without any mitigating statements.

'08? Are you serious? We're not even done with the '06 cycle, yet.
To hijack your hijackery (probably in poor taste today, but I'm told I taste bad, so...): I'm really hoping the Democrats get control of the Senate and the House. I'm a huge believer in oppositional control of the various branches of government. Also, I'd like to see some accountability from the White House, because, IMNSHO...this Administration has gotten away with a LOT of BS that wouldn't have happened if he were a Democratic president (the getting away with part, not necessarily the attempts).

[headsplice]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

OBL is one hell of a lot less free than he would have been following your proposed strategy. Nor do I believe for one second that "being nice" would result in there being fewer terrorists.

No, it probably wouldn't. But, not being dickheads to countries who offered us help would have been useful (e.g., Iran, which had intelligence about OBL, but we refused to talk to them).

[9th Engineer]

We need a president who favors indirect methods over frontal assaults. Our spy web was neatly dismanted during the Clinton administration and we need to double it from what it was before that. The scale of the human intelligence network we should have in the field now dwarfs what we had even during the Cold War peak. We don't need carpet bombing, we need to orchistrate scandals within the Iranian government. We don't need tank columns, we need black-ops and poison experts. We don't need public executions, we need silent disappearences.
I've said this before, and so long as it's trendy to quote Sun Tzu in this thread "in war, one must find what the enemy treasures most and attack it". The enemy puts blind faith in its religious leaders, do not kill them, discredit and humiliate them. Then the mobs and fanatics will have no one to direct their blind energy and can be disposed of quietly.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Nor do I believe for one second that "being nice" would result in there being fewer terrorists.

We are losing the war or terror. There are more terrorists today than there were 5 years ago, and we created them with our wars.

Terrorism is hatred. You can't fight hatred with bombs. It's more complicated than that.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Our spy web was neatly dismanted during the Clinton administration and we need to double it from what it was before that.

Yeah. All those spies in Moscow would have helped us a lot in catching OBL. [/sarcasm]

But you are right. We need a mutipronged approach toward defeating terrorism. Swinging a big stick around isn't going to do it. You are just turning more people to terrorism.

We need an approach like 9th engineer suggests, but not just the cloak and dagger shit. We need that, but we also need simple diplomacy. Cooperation with moderate governments. We also need to listen to the tree huggers, and reduce our dependence on arab oil so we can reduce our military presence in the Arab world. They don't like our bases in the shadow of Mecca, and a lot of Americans simply don't understand that, and are unwilling to make personal sacrifices like giving up SUVs. If we do come across a situation where war is the only option, we need to listen to our generals so we win that war.

Simply put, we are losing the war on terror, and we need to do things differently.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by glatt

We are losing the war or terror. There are more terrorists today than there were 5 years ago, and we created them with our wars.

Terrorism is hatred. You can't fight hatred with bombs. It's more complicated than that.

Terrorism is *caused* by hatred; the two are not identical. I suspect the hatred can't be fought; it's an emotion, and emotions are the responsibilty of the people having them.

We didn't "create terrorists with our wars". (That's blaming the victim.) The terrorists existed before the wars. The terrorists *started* the wars. Our sin in their eyes is that we didn't recognize the error of our ways and convert to Islam. There's no form of "being nice" or "tolerant" or "not racist" that will appease them; there's only "destroy Israel and impose Sharia law world-wide"; that's their clearly stated objective.

Four airliners weren't hijacked five years ago today because we "failed to be nice enough". And we've not avoided more of the same by "learning to be nice". Or tolerant. Or nuanced.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

No, it probably wouldn't. But, not being dickheads to countries who offered us help would have been useful (e.g., Iran, which had intelligence about OBL, but we refused to talk to them).

Iran was considered to be untrustworthy. Gee, I wonder why? And "not being dickheads" is just a code phrase for "being nice".

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

NOTE: I didn't ask what he's done well, I asked what he's done CORRECTLY. I realize that's, potentially extremely subjective.

Which is why it's pointless to discuss it with you. And leave out "potentially".

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

I'm really hoping the Democrats get control of the Senate and the House.

Imagine my shock and surprise. No, really.

[JayMcGee]

I just love the way you yanks bring the whole issue of the midde east, the war on terror, hezbollah and Hamas down to the parochial level of 'who you going to vote for next time?'......

Why are you so surprised when the rest of the world laughs at your grasp of polictical reality?

[Undertoad]

Jay provides us an important lesson.

The current strain of European anti-Americanism is not due to, and will not end with, Bush's time in office.