Vaccination & epidemic

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by jinx

Did you watch the second video I linked back in post 435? Seems to be the same kinda thing going on, although much less dramatic.

Sure, but it's the much less dramatic part that makes it unconvincing; at no time does this sufferer have complete control whatsoever.

Actual dystonia sufferers are apparently treated by the INJECTION (!) of botulism TOXIN (!) in order to get complete muscular control...

ETA: We could just ask the actual dystonia suffers if they believe DJ had dystonia. Well we don't need to, they already spoke up on that matter to say she didn't.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Sure, but it's the much less dramatic part that makes it unconvincing; at no time does this sufferer have complete control whatsoever.

So it's not the symptoms you described that you have issue with, it's actually the degree.
The people in the 2 videos I linked seem to have varying degrees of symptoms as well - what do you make of that?

Actual dystonia sufferers are apparently treated by the INJECTION (!) of botulism TOXIN (!) in order to get complete muscular control...

ETA: We could just ask the actual dystonia suffers if they believe DJ had dystonia. Well we don't need to, they already spoke up on that matter to say she didn't.

Wtf? Is any of this in response to the questions I asked about the doctor you find credible or....

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by jinx

So it's not the symptoms you described that you have issue with, it's actually the degree.

The people in the 2 videos I linked seem to have varying degrees of symptoms as well - what do you make of that?

One of them seems to go between a 6 and an 8 (before treatment); the other woman seems to go from a 3 to a 5 and back again. DJ went from a 0 when running to a 7 when walking. She was using the same muscles...

But, also, what I make of it is not all that important. I'm only speculating on what an educated, experienced specialist might see that would convince him, within 15 seconds, that the stated diagnosis was wrong.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

So: what's the motivation for a neurologist with a specialty in movement disorders to lie about this or make something up? He puts his reputation on the line for... the sake of a few minutes of local news air time?

Why wouldn't he? What makes this guy different from all the other doctors, scientists and researchers who's unscrupulous behaviour has been discussed or documented here? Money, sex, drugs, position.... they've all had their reasons.

Why would he publicly diagnose a person, not his patient, that he's only seen on videotape?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by jinx

Why wouldn't he? What makes this guy different from all the other doctors, scientists and researchers who's unscrupulous behaviour has been discussed or documented here? Money, sex, drugs, position.... they've all had their reasons.

The ones documented here?

Why would he publicly diagnose a person, not his patient, that he's only seen on videotape?

As one of the area's leading physicians, he may feel that correcting dangerous misinformation to improve the public health is part of his job.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The ones documented here?

Yes, there have been quite a few, from pharmaceutical to climate research. I hope you didn't miss them all.

As one of the area's leading physicians, he may feel that correcting dangerous misinformation to improve the public health is part of his job.

That misinformation being that Desiree specifically was injured by a vaccine, or that it is actually possible to be injured by a vaccine?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by jinx

Yes, there have been quite a few, from pharmaceutical to climate research. I hope you didn't miss them all.

My response is already in #342 in this thread.

In the short run, yes, all those things you put into scare quotes are corruptible. Less corruptible than in almost every other institution, but yes.

In the long run, no. Truth will out. Redundant studies will find conflicting results, new theories will be advanced and tested.

The guy who discovered that stomach ulcers are caused by a virus was going heavily against medical consensus... and faced some battles at first... but the truth was evident. The guy who invented the MRI faced an uphill battle, as nobody believed he could be coming up with something useful. In the end, truth won.

Why doesn't the CDC operate in the way you'd prefer? Dunno. Your explanation seems to tend towards "The organization is involved in an unlawful, multi-decade conspiracy to maintain the status quo at all costs." I doubt this.

The explanation that you desire requires more and more extraordinary narratives over time. This makes me more skeptical.

That misinformation being that Desiree specifically was injured by a vaccine, or that it is actually possible to be injured by a vaccine?

That misinformation being that the flu vaccine is dangerous.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

So: what's the motivation for a neurologist with a specialty in movement disorders to lie about this or make something up? He puts his reputation on the line for... the sake of a few minutes of local news air time?

You have it backwards. He is not putting his reputation on the line, he is solidifying his reputation by speaking up in favor of the accepted medical doctrine. To stay silent on the matter, or to say that he can't know for sure what's going on, would be to put his reputation on the line. The doctors doing the unconventional things are the ones putting their reputations on the line; this guy is just trying to throw them under the bus. If he turns out to be wrong, what happens? Nothing, because then practically everyone would have been wrong right along with him.

Edit to add: I don't believe he's lying or making anything up. I believe he's protecting what he's always believed, and what he's built his career on. It wouldn't look very good for "a Medical Advisor for the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation; lead physician at the Parkinson's & Movement Disorders Center of Maryland," etc. to have no understanding of this woman's dystonia. So he insists (and honestly believes) that he does have an understanding of it, one that makes it fit in with what he already believes.

[Clodfobble]

Nitpick: the botulism doesn't give complete or really even any added muscle control, it just makes the uncontrolled movements less severe because the muscles are losing their ability to tighten at all.

[Undertoad]

As a reminder, so we can keep facts straight:

People who thought DJ had dystonia:

DJ's physical therapist

People who thought neurological dystonia was not her major malfunction:

Dr. Stephen Grill
A large team of DJ's original diagnosing physicians, including neurologists and neurological psychiatrists at Johns Hopkins
The U of MD's dystonia department
The Dystonia Foundation
DJ's treating physician, Dr. Buttar

[jinx]

I'd be more easily convinced he saw something specific if he'd mentioned it.

[Clodfobble]

Dangerous is a relative word, and meaningless in this case.

Do you, or do you not, agree that it is possible to be injured by a vaccine?

[Undertoad]

Of course I would agree; of course!

But since the flu shot is one of the safest vaccines, it's much more likely to prevent you from injury/serious illness/death, so to describe it as "dangerous" is silly.

It's like - once in a while, somebody gets clocked by an automotive air bag... a handful of people have died, mostly children. Dangerous? Well they've saved about 10,000 lives, so you make the call.

Meanwhile, my DJ google alert is STILL, to this day, filled with tards reason-challenged bloggers linking the original DJ YouTube video, to tell people how dangerous the H1N1 shot is. Never mind that wasn't the vaccine she received. Never mind she's all better now, her situation is descrbied as permanent.

And now that I mention that, I recall that "permanent" was how you, Clod, described DJ's condition in post #395 of this thread.

[Flint]

I could prevent myself from getting toenail fungus by chopping off my foot. Should I? Would it be dangerous?

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Of course I would agree;

But since it's much more likely to prevent you from injury/serious illness/death, to describe it as "dangerous" is ridiculous. It like - once in a while, somebody gets clocked by an automotive air bag... a handful of people have died, mostly children. Dangerous? Well they've saved about 10,000 lives, so make the call.

See... to me....the chances of getting the disease you're inoculating against are slim to start out....and then, the chances of being killed by that disease are yet another level of slimness.

the chances of getting injured by some fucked up concoction of who knows what... that some money motivated government sponsored program decides is a good thing... in general terms....is at least equal, if not greater.