Bush hits a new low

[theotherguy]

Originally Posted by tw

The first thing extremists need your eyes to do - glaze over as soon as numbers are posted.

Let me be clear. I do think that numbers are very important. But, without specific, qualifying statements as to how the numbers are determined, they are meaningless.

How many people were actually polled?
In what region? (results from NYC will typically be quite different from those in Birmingham, AL on political issues)
What were the questions asked?
Were they open-ended or were there answers from which the respondent was required to use?
The list could go on.

We have become such suckers for graphs, charts, and numbers that the majority will soak them up without question.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by theotherguy

The first day of my collegiate statistics class, the Prof said, "Welcome to Statistics 101. Also known as lying with numbers."

I am not saying whether the particular numbers in this thread are right or wrong, but I start to lose interest when sources are quoted stating that, "50% of Americans believe..." or "9 out of 10 doctors..." Don't like the first data set compiled by our research? No problem. We can start over again and again until we get the desired result.

I only really take one set of these things seriously, "30 Helens agree..."

This is exactly what happens. I did this for a living and no I'm not proud.....and I myself, am also more inclined to believe the statistics from 'kids in the hall'. You don't even have to start over again by the way- you can lengthen or shorten the research period. Even down to the millisecond. Only 'targets' get to answer the questions that have predetermined answers. The respondent doesn't even know in most cases that they are being "qualified" in the first answer set. If you are not qualified your answers go unused and are not even submitted. They will tell you that that is the end of the poll and thank you for your time and go try to find a more "qualified" person. Did you know that in most cases, your answers do not exist if you don't make $100,000 or over a year? (qualifiers, questions, and answers are entirely dependent on the client company) Well I'll just say that there are many ways to manipulate these polls and it's a very detailed process, each poll is designed by the client company. The client company tells you what they need and you produce the results. Period.
The only halfway honest polling I have seen come from this is the company that wants to know your impression of them, and wants to see if the majority have caught onto their illegal activities and law-suits and in conjunction, what effect that has had on their image. Is our new environmentally friendly ad campaign working? Even then they still shoot for brand recognition. Example: "So- what is you impression of Coca Cola?" Coca Cola, Coca Cola. etc. etc.
Aaah- people can believe what they want. I give. One of my friends still does it. He has nicknamed himself "the wizard" for a reason.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by theotherguy

Let me be clear. I do think that numbers are very important. But, without specific, qualifying statements as to how the numbers are determined, they are meaningless.

How many people were actually polled?
In what region? (results from NYC will typically be quite different from those in Birmingham, AL on political issues)
What were the questions asked?
Were they open-ended or were there answers from which the respondent was required to use?
The list could go on.

We have become such suckers for graphs, charts, and numbers that the majority will soak them up without question.

Exactly...

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Cicero

This is exactly what happens. I did this for a living and no I'm not proud.....and I myself, am also more inclined to believe the statistics from 'kids in the hall'. You don't even have to start over again by the way- you can lengthen or shorten the research period. Even down to the millisecond. Only 'targets' get to answer the questions that have predetermined answers. The respondent doesn't even know in most cases that they are being "qualified" in the first answer set. If you are not qualified your answers go unused and are not even submitted. They will tell you that that is the end of the poll and thank you for your time and go try to find a more "qualified" person. Did you know that in most cases, your answers do not exist if you don't make $100,000 or over a year? (qualifiers, questions, and answers are entirely dependent on the client company) Well I'll just say that there are many ways to manipulate these polls and it's a very detailed process, each poll is designed by the client company. The client company tells you what they need and you produce the results. Period.
The only halfway honest polling I have seen come from this is the company that wants to know your impression of them, and wants to see if the majority have caught onto their illegal activities and law-suits and in conjunction, what effect that has had on their image. Is our new environmentally friendly ad campaign working? Even then they still shoot for brand recognition. Example: "So- what is you impression of Coca Cola?" Coca Cola, Coca Cola. etc. etc.
Aaah- people can believe what they want. I give. One of my friends still does it. He has nicknamed himself "the wizard" for a reason.

Thank you for your honest insight. I have been saying this for years. The agenda driven people don't want to believe this.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Thank you for your honest insight. I have been saying this for years. The agenda driven people don't want to believe this.

I'm usually a horses a@#. But in this case, people are just going to have to take it from my horses mouth.

[tw]

Originally Posted by theotherguy

Let me be clear. I do think that numbers are very important. But, without specific, qualifying statements as to how the numbers are determined, they are meaningless.

Quite right is the 'quality' of those numbers. Or why underlying facts (ie how questions are worded) is important. UT demonstrated this in a discussion of polls maybe a year ago.

However to dispute those numbers, then you should have other numbers. To 'know' those numbers means you have more credible numbers. And that is the point. Numbers are necessary to make judgements. The most dangerous 'judgements' are those made without and that disparage numbers.

How do extremists promote their propaganda? Notice that Rush does not provide numbers. He preaches to those whose eyes routinely glaze over when numbers must be analyzed. That is the point. Our resident extremists demonstrate the technique often. They use disparaging comments to prove righteousness - rather than post numbers. They avoid hard numbers since, in one case, numbers make it harder to then rewrite history.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

Quite right is the 'quality' of those numbers. Or why underlying facts (ie how questions are worded) is important. UT demonstrated this in a discussion of polls maybe a year ago.

However to dispute those numbers, then you should have other numbers. To 'know' those numbers means you have more credible numbers. And that is the point. Numbers are necessary to make judgements. The most dangerous 'judgements' are those made without and that disparage numbers.

You missed the point, polls are weak forms of statistical measure and not worth the 1's and 0's used to pass them around on the web to bolster your repeated masinations.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You missed the point, polls are weak forms of statistical measure and not worth the 1's and 0's used to pass them around on the web to bolster your repeated masinations.

TheMercenary misses the point.

Psssttt - TheMercenary. It's not about you. Its about how extremists such as you promote Rush Limbaugh lies for a political agenda. TheMercenary must do everything possible to avoid that point. He knows those numbers are wrong because he has no numbers or facts to say otherwise. He automatically knows. It's called a political agenda.

Let's see. More scientists publicly announce today how White House extremists routinely changed science (and the numbers) for political purposes. How ironic. White House lawyers do same thing. Clearly it must be a mistake. White House lawyers would not change the numbers. Extremist lawyers would eliminate numbers that are politically incorrect.

Did TheMercenary post a single fact in reply? Of course not. That would be an honest post. Extremists know numbers can be subverted by naysaying.
"Numbers can lie. Therefore these numbers must be lies."
But again, what is it all about? The point is demontrated by TheMercenary – how he just knows is sufficient to be a fact.

Psssttt - TheMercenary. It’s not about those poll numbers. It's all about how you deny those numbers without a shred of fact. It's all about how you promote a political agenda.

Even integrity if that poll is irrelevant. TheMercenary automatically knows those numbers are wrong only because he knows. Those who think similar also ‘pervert science for politics’. Even 800 in Guantanamo must all be guilty only because they are in Guantanamo. Torture them. TheMercenary even approves of torture because he knows. More reasoning based in a political agenda that proves those poll numbers are wrong.

Numbers must be changed to be politically correct. It is called a political agenda.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

TheMercenary ..... Bla, bla, bla.... TheMercenary....... TheMercenary........ Bla, bla, bla..... bla, bla, bla....... TheMercenary .................TheMercenary............ TheMercenary..................Bla..... bla, bla, bla..... TheMercenary....... Bla..... bla, bla, bla, bla..... bla.... bla, bla...... TheMercenary ........Bla, bla, bla....

Psssssssssssssst. tw, It still is not about me...

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I dunno: most of the President's critics are visibly basing their criticism on the President being a Republican, while the critics are not. This taints the critics -- I think irredeemably.

Could such critics redeem themselves? Only by winning the war better than this Republican Administration can. The Administration's critics are solely interested in losing the War on Terror, perhaps in hopes of winning the Oval Office.

In other words, redemption is improbable to the most extreme degree. Hah!

Winning the Oval Office and then losing the War will mean the Democrats will go extinct in the American population's backlash against them and their foolishness.

Speaking of foolishness, suppose they succeed in impeaching and convicting George W. Bush? Who do they get for a replacement then, per the Constitution? -- Vice President Cheney. Not quite, I shouldn't think, what they're after. Hah, again. What possible motivation could anyone have for voting for such an assortment of idiots?

Tw is unaware, I see, that the current number of Guantanamo inmates is down to about 375.

[piercehawkeye45]

The Democrats say the war is already lost so I don't think it will hurt them that much.

[yesman065]

Pierce - Great point - I agree! Its like a self fulfilling prophecy! The worse the war goes, the better the democrats look and the more elections they win. The only way they can win is if the republicans lose. Think of the situation where there is a "successful" outcome in Irag. That would be devastating to the democratic party. They want to lose this war so bad so that THEY can use it against their opponents during the elections, get elected into power and reap the benefits of that power. The mainstream media highlights EVERY negative and glosses over any positive outcome. The media's bias is clearly evident.

Polls and statistics are made for people who need to be told what to think - those who have no ability to think on their own. All they do is spout #'s and statistics and tell you what you should think because of them. They lack the ability to expand their own minds and think for themselves.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Given the behavior of the Democratic Party for the last fifteen straight years, I want them to lose and lose a lot.

They haven't got an FDR or a JFK any more.

[DanaC]

Yep. Those democrats and their behaviour. They should take a close look at how the Republican party have been acting these past few years and take some lessons on decorum.

[yesman065]

Dana - I tried to be very careful and not promote the extreme right either - I am for getting whatever need be done over there done so we can get the hell out. We cannot just walk away, that is obvious to all - I hope. Its just the motivation behind the democratic party seems to be simply to gain power at too great an expense to our country. Does anyoneone have any ideas other than simply "stay the course" or "leave tomorrow?"