Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[JayMcGee]

Sorry for the delay, UT, but.....

I'm not going to say which are the three most offending - there is no benefit to be gained in such unrealistic ranking. But Guntanamo Bay, extraordinary rendition, the natwest three all point to a country that seems to want to alienate its long time friends.

[tw]

Having been take to a field full of cluster bombs, MaggieL still denies they are there - or this is not Lebanon - or that Hezbollah planted them - or the Chinese are not really removing them. And we are also winning the "Mission Accomplished" war. So clearly the press lies again?

Saddam never had to do this. From the NY Times of 15 Sept 2006:

Iraqis Plan to Ring Baghdad With Trenches
The Iraqi government plans to seal off Baghdad within weeks by ringing it with a series of trenches and setting up dozens of traffic checkpoints to control movement in and out of the violent city of seven million people, an Interior Ministry spokesman said Friday.

The effort is one of the most ambitious security projects this year, with cars expected to be funneled through 28 checkpoints along the main arteries snaking out from the capital. Smaller roads would be closed. The trenches would run across farmland or other open areas to prevent cars from evading checkpoints, said the ministry spokesman, Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim Khalaf.

Americans even transfered a whole Striker battalion where it was desperately needed in Anbar and extended duty tours by four months, to reduce Baghdad violence. Once latest 'corrections' were released, Baghdad violence over the past three months, even with a mass American military concentration in Baghdad, did not decrease.

The Baghdad morgue has reported that at least 1,535 Iraqi civilians died violently in the capital in August, a 17 percent drop from July but still much higher than virtually all other months. ...
American commanders have made securing Baghdad their top priority. They have shifted troops to Baghdad to try to contain the sectarian conflict raging in the capital, which threatens to plunge Iraq into all-out civil war. A security plan promoted in June by American officials and Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki involved setting up traffic checkpoints throughout Baghdad, but failed to quell the Sunni-Shiite sectarian violence, which reached a peak in July.

"Mission Accomplished". George Jr does not lie. Just ask MaggieL.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Mission Accomplished was neither a lie nor exaggeration.
When the military finished what W had planned to do, and had asked them to do, the mission was indeed accomplished.

Unfortunately, the only thing he planned, was knocking Saddam out of his throne, and only that (mission) was accomplished. When he made that statement he probably still didn't realize what had been overlooked, in his rush to get Saddam.
He forgot, after they hit the ball you have to tell them to run the bases and in what order. Not that the military is stupid, they need authority, they need a goal and they need supply, all of which takes planning.

[Hippikos]

Of course I do. But you claimed it was "the horse's mouth"; I was pointing out we have only the reporter's assurance that it was in fact a horse, much less his mouth.

It came from those who used the cluster bombs, therefore it was from the Horses Mouth.

Not at all, it points out what a logically bankrupt move it is to say "IDF had this weapon, therefore it supports the claim that it must have been used in the heineous way described by an anonymous source". That's called "affrirming the consequent".

Not only had the IDF this weapon, it also used it, especially in the last 72 hours (out of frustration?). Cluster bombs are heinious, especially in civil areas, whatever Wikipedia pages you produce.

But you see, I'm not a journalist, tasked with objectively reporting the facts. If I were, I'd have an obligation to be objective. Although Fisk has already discliamed that; he unblushingly admits he's an advocate...and Rappaport's reporting seems to me to speak for itself on that score as well.

So when one advocate simply quotes another advocate, it's a circular argument. It's not evidence.

Fisk is in the area for decades and reports what he sees. Haved you been there lately?
As for Rapaport, he quotes this anonymous source, which apparently you don't believe because it doesn't fit your worldview and therefore call it a hoax.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

It came from those who used the cluster bombs...

That's begging the question again. As I said, we have only Rappaport's word that this is an accurate quote from an actual source. It's totally unsupported; the claim that it's accurate can't serve as evidence of its accuracy. A circular argument...just like "Fisk reports what he sees". Fisk tells us that "reporting" that serves his propaganda objectives is a higher purpose than "reporting what he sees".

Don't you have any better evidence than this? Because there's a boatload of evidence for Hezbollah's actions; they are not in dispute.

So we have a lot of handwaving in support of a moral equivalance argument. Already a lot of "evidence" offered up to support this argument has turned out to be manufactured and totally bogus, but it was believed widely enough for long enough to serve its intended psyops function: to create pressure on Israel.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Not only had the IDF this weapon, it also used it, especially in the last 72 hours (out of frustration?).

A trained military doesn't waste valuable munitions "out of frustration". Soldiers are trained to shoot but also trained to always know how many rounds are left. Whatever they did was a tactic.

Best guess - they knew at that point that they were not going to put more boots on the ground, yet they wanted to kill as many Hezb as possible before the cease-fire.

[JayMcGee]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Best guess - they knew at that point that they were not going to put more boots on the ground, yet they wanted to kill as many Hezb as possible before the cease-fire.

mmmm.....I've heard of 'smart bombs' , now we have smart cluster bombs?

what do they do - check the DNA of the foot descending on them? O, that's an arab so it must be Hezbolah - time to go 'bang'?

[Undertoad]

Sort of like cluster arguments - just throw enough crap out there and figure enough of it will stick.

[JayMcGee]

que?
are you reading this thread, or is it just another 'write only' ?

[Ibby]

Cluster bombs DO NOT EQUAL mines. They aren't used as such. They are meant to hit, explode multiple times, then thats the end of it. However, it's an unfortunate fact that they don't always do so. However, they are no more mines than any other bomb. But when you have multiple thingies that go BANG and a less-than-average chance of actually going BANG, you end up with duds. Simple statistics.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Cluster bombs DO NOT EQUAL mines. They aren't used as such.

Actually, some cluster munitions *can* be used that way. But I've not seen any evidence that they have been used that way in this case. Or much evidence at all from the "IDF are terrorists (too)" side of this discussion that holds much water at all, frankly.

Cluster munitions, either artillery or gravity bombs, are pretty much standard for any modern military these days...which makes them a standard propaganda target in asymmetric warfare. Since the terrorist side doesn't have them, wave a bloody shirt about how inherently immoral they must be; since most liberals--oh...excuse me..."progressives"--don't actually know dick about weapons (after all, posessing such knowlege is clear evidence that you're evil) it's an easy sell. It's vastly easier to distract such people with horror porn about weapons when it's how they are used that's actually important.

UT makes that point, the tactic is: throw around a bunch of wild accusations, posted as widely as possible, supported by "evidence" that examined closely would convince only the choir you're preaching to, and hope something sticks long enough to achieve your propaganda objective. Accuse anybody who questions it of being a "zionist", a "zionist dupe" or a "racist".

[Hippikos]

UT makes that point, the tactic is: throw around a bunch of wild accusations, posted as widely as possible, supported by "evidence" that examined closely would convince only the choir you're preaching to, and hope something sticks long enough to achieve your propaganda objective. Accuse anybody who questions it of being a "zionist", a "zionist dupe" or a "racist".

MaggieL constantly tries to minimize the effect of the cluster bombs as if they're candy thrown to the children. The only tactic throwing here were the cluster bombs in the last 3 days of the 33 days war. Cluster bombs are the last resort if nothing else helps without boots on the ground. Compare it with you're tired of chasing the mosquito and fill the whole room with anti mosquito spray. Very bad for whatever else lives there, but it might kill the mosquito.

Accuse anybody who questions it of being a "zionist", a "zionist dupe" or a "racist".

And here we go again, the Zionist card is drawn again, if nothing else helps. I am waiting for the ultimate "anti-semitic" ace to be thrown on the table. That always seems to work for MaggieL.

If it was according MaggieL, all these pinkocommielibs should s.t.f.u. about these cute little bomblets and let the IDF do their work. Let's complain about are these nasty ka-ty-usha's. These are the real killers.

A trained military doesn't waste valuable munitions "out of frustration". Soldiers are trained to shoot but also trained to always know how many rounds are left. Whatever they did was a tactic.

You keep living in your ideal world, UT, where only trained military don't waste their ammunition. In the real world the frustration ran high in the IDF because Olmert and Peretz refused to extend the ground invasion and, according to brigade commanders, the lack of movement put the forces on the defensive and gave the upper hand to Hizbullah fighters. Read any Israelian online paper and you'll read the frustration of the military.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

MaggieL constantly tries to minimize the effect of the cluster bombs as if they're candy thrown to the children.

Not at all. Deadly weapons are in fact deadly; that is inherent in their design.

But use of cluster munitions isn't prima facie evidence of an "indiscriminate" assault, and an argument for moral equivalance, which is how you and others have been trying to spin it.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

If it was according MaggieL, all these pinkocommielibs should s.t.f.u. about these cute little bomblets and let the IDF do their work. Let's complain about are these nasty ka-ty-usha's. These are the real killers.

While I don't agree as such, that is a completely valid point that I can easily see the sense of. Hezbollah IS indiscriminately firing the rockets; Israel is trying to hit the rockets. Failing to hit the target and firing indiscriminately are two completely different things.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Hezbollah IS indiscriminately firing the rockets; Israel is trying to hit the rockets. Failing to hit the target and firing indiscriminately are two completely different things.

That might be true. Having missed their targets, Israel managed to strike ten cities in Lebanon's most northern province of Akkar. Clearly that was not indiscriminate.

Trying to take out rockets that could not be seen and that could be anywhere within a five mile attack area - that too is not indiscriminate. Clearly they were targeting a rocket launcher somewhere within five miles. A field of cluster bombs spread out within that area was definitely targeting the launcher. A launcher that pilots could not see but must have been targeting all the way to Akkar.