US... the day is coming, please

Originally Posted by monster

Wait a minute..... you do know there is no separation of church and state in the UK? That here is a national religion there?
....What am I thinking, of course you know that -from the days when you used to work in British Government

Was reading the title of the thread too hard for you baby?

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

There are lots of forms of faith that do not contradict any known evidence; rather they focus on the things we can't know.

Things we CAN'T know are precisely are what we need to avoid making definite decisions about. Because we can't prove that "God is out there and that he doesn't WANT it to be easy to believe in him" is the reason we should avoid being so sure about it. It's a hypthesis that can't be disproven, and in every logical system that discounts it as a non-argument.

[Cloud]

you cannot apply logical reasoning to the unknowable

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by queequeger

Things we CAN'T know are precisely are what we need to avoid making definite decisions about.

As opposed to the things we CAN know... because historically, we've got such a good track record with all the things we thought we knew for sure, right? Making "definite decisions" should not be the immediate goal for either science or religion (though obviously not everyone agrees with me as many faiths are more obstinate and foolishly dogmatic in the face of evidence.) It's about striving to understand. Humans ultimately don't know shit, through science or faith. We do the best we can. A person who is completely unwilling to consider seemingly unlikely possibilities for the unknown (how's that quantum mechanics thing working out?) is no better than a fundamentalist who puts an ancient book on the same pedestal.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

A person who is completely unwilling to consider seemingly unlikely possibilities for the unknown...

But what is there to consider when the subject is unknowable? What criteria do you use to choose among the countless premade possibilities and the uncountable ones yet to be made up?

Most people pick the one their parents picked, most of whom did the same, and so on. Some pick one that makes them feel good. Some, in response to guilt, pick one that makes them feel bad in the right way. Some pick one based on friends. Some pick one based on a charismatic spokesman. Some make up their own.

Before you can "consider seemingly unlikely possibilities for the unknown", you have to decide what criteria you have available that actually indicates truth. None of the above criteria are considered to be particularly accurate for anything but religion, and I see no need to consider them more accurate in another area, just because in that area they can't be proven wrong.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

None of the above criteria are considered to be particularly accurate for anything but religion, and I see no need to consider them more accurate in another area, just because in that area they can't be proven wrong.

But why are you trying to apply them to another area? The whole point is that the areas don't have to interfere with one another. One can have philosophical thoughts about philosophical matters, and scientific thoughts about empirical matters.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

But what is there to consider when the subject is unknowable? What criteria do you use to choose among the countless premade possibilities and the uncountable ones yet to be made up?

I am personally very much of the "sure, but does it put food on the table?" school of thought. I find all forms of philosophy to be incredibly boring, at best. But I don't begrudge other people their desire to think about things, and to imagine things that seem likely or interesting to them. Everyone's criteria is going to be different, as you said, but I don't have a problem with that. That's why people can talk about things as well as think about them. But Queequeger's original statement was

I know this will make a lot of people angry/judgemental at/of me, but I think "faith" is a bad thing. "Faith" means "I will hold this belief in the contradiction to all the evidence against it." It makes no sense, and it doesn't make someone strong. Just like ignoring all contrary evidence in ANY forum, it is a stubbornness.

We all get on the cases of people who won't change their arguments, people who won't listen to astounding evidence. Yet somehow if it's being stubborn for God it makes it something to be admired.

His definition of "faith" is completely inaccurate for many people. Faith can be applied to plenty of philosophical matters without ever contradicting empirical evidence.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

But why are you trying to apply them to another area? The whole point is that the areas don't have to interfere with one another. One can have philosophical thoughts about philosophical matters, and scientific thoughts about empirical matters.

The "another area" I was referring to was religion. I was saying that they are no more applicable to religious thought than any other type of thought.

Faith is more than

desire to think about things, and to imagine things that seem likely or interesting to them.

Imagining and thinking about stuff is fine. Faith is deciding that they are true, based on criteria that one would not consider trustworthy in any other context.

Ignoring the reliability of your selection criteria isn't much better than ignoring more direct evidence.

[classicman]

HM - you seem to have such a negative opinion of the word. It surprises me.

Here, from wiki:
"Believing a certain variable will act or has the potential to act a specific way despite the potential influence and probability of known or unknown change.

* To have faith that one's spouse will keep a promise or commitment.
* To have faith that the world will someday be peaceful.
* To have faith that a person will pay you back.
* To have faith that you will be okay despite adversity.
* To have faith in one's full dependence on the will of supernatural forces or deities."

Within certain contexts faith is a great thing - applied or used inappropriately it can be potentially very bad.

[Happy Monkey]

It's not the word 'faith', but the concept of certainty without regard for evidence that is most problematic. The less certainty and the more subject to evidence, the better.

Usually faith in one's spouse means that you don't get unduly jealous. That is a good thing. But if you have complete faith that your spouse is faithful, they could cheat on you without worry. You would feel great, but it wouldn't be true.

Usually faith that the world will find peace is more of a hope than faith. If you have absolute faith that it will happen, what is the impetus to make it happen?

If you have absolute faith that someone will pay you back, it will never be the time to collect.

So I'd agree with:

Within certain contexts faith is a great thing - applied or used inappropriately it can be potentially very bad.

But I'd add that the context is that the faithier the faith, the more inappropriate it is. The stronger the "Believing" and the more drastic the "despite" as per the wiki definition, the more dangerous the faith.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Cloud

you cannot apply logical reasoning to the unknowable

Yes you can, we do it all the time. That's what philosophy majors DO when they're not acting smarmy.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

As opposed to the things we CAN know... because historically, we've got such a good track record with all the things we thought we knew for sure, right?

I don't get it, are you saying that we shouldn't try to be sure because we've been wrong? If that IS what you're saying it's a pretty ridiculous argument. People used to think the earth was flat, blah blah blah. No one can say they know FOR SURE they're not a figment of a giant space beetle's dream... that doesn't mean they should spend their whole lives pondering the question. Do you know for sure the next time you sleep something won't kill you? No, not 100%, but are you going to try and stay awake until you ARE sure? You find the most likely solution to a question and move on until there is new information.

My main point is, that we've learned a lot of new information and it means that the most likely solution is no longer the magic man in the sky. We're figuring out how things work, and all of our logic tells us that God was a crutch used by our forbears to explain what they couldn't figure out at the time.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Making "definite decisions" should not be the immediate goal for either science or religion (though obviously not everyone agrees with me as many faiths are more obstinate and foolishly dogmatic in the face of evidence.) It's about striving to understand. Humans ultimately don't know shit, through science or faith. We do the best we can. A person who is completely unwilling to consider seemingly unlikely possibilities for the unknown (how's that quantum mechanics thing working out?) is no better than a fundamentalist who puts an ancient book on the same pedestal.

Now we're arguing semantics. My version of a "definite decision" is one that we are sure enough about to work into our world view. Gravity, evolution, magnetism, etc. The reason we assume these things is that up until now (and using the scientific method, not uncontrolled observation) all of our evidence points to the proper formation of these theories. They COULD have been disproven, but they haven't been(As opposed to god, who can't be disproven because of the "he's testing us" argument). And it's not to say they won't be reversed or altered, but for now our best bet is moving forward with these things as a base for reasoning.

Your version of "definite decision" (or perhaps what you assumed my version was) is something we can know 100% for sure. No one above a middle school level of education would argue this exists (except maybe your very enthusiastic religiouso).

So in conclusion, while I don't know for sure that there isn't a magical man in the sky who created everything "just because," and that in order to test our resolve he has placed mountains of evidence contradicting his descriptions, I can assume well enough to bet my "eternal soul."

Also, on a loosely connected note: If you haven't seen the movie "Man From Earth," don't read anything about it, or even the back cover, rent it and watch it. The surprise is what makes it such a great movie. It's basically a look into some possible reactions of intellectuals to information that severely challenges their world views with an unlikely possibilities.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by queequeger

Do you know for sure the next time you sleep something won't kill you? No, not 100%, but are you going to try and stay awake until you ARE sure? You find the most likely solution to a question and move on until there is new information.

Absolutely, and there are faiths that are capable of doing that.

Originally Posted by queequeger

My main point is, that we've learned a lot of new information and it means that the most likely solution is no longer the magic man in the sky... So in conclusion, while I don't know for sure that there isn't a magical man in the sky who created everything "just because," and that in order to test our resolve he has placed mountains of evidence contradicting his descriptions, I can assume well enough to bet my "eternal soul."

Let me say it as clearly as I can: Faith DOES NOT EQUAL a magic man in the sky. It certainly can and does for some people, but for many others, it doesn't. You have taken a single, oversimplified, particularly dogmatic and particularly rare interpretation of Christianity, and defined it as all "faith." It is not.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Imagining and thinking about stuff is fine. Faith is deciding that they are true, based on criteria that one would not consider trustworthy in any other context.

Ignoring the reliability of your selection criteria isn't much better than ignoring more direct evidence.

What happens when you die? We don't know, and can't know. I choose to have an opinion on the subject, based on my experience of the world and science and my moral sensibilities of how the universe ought to work. Those criteria don't have to be reliable for you; they are reliable enough for me. I often make guesses about everyday occurrences that are nothing more than my best guess given the information I have to work with. I could certainly be wrong, but I have to have a certain amount of faith that my opinion is true, or everything would be at a standstill. Whenever evidence comes along to refute it, I revise my opinion. Just because I have faith in the conclusions I have drawn does not mean I am unwilling to reconsider.

A faith that refuses to acknowledge evidence is foolish. But refusing to make any choices because of a lack of certain evidence can just as easily be taken to unhealthy extremes as well. The husband who has complete and unwavering faith that his wife will not cheat is foolish, but so is the husband who refuses to have any amount of faith that she will not.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What happens when you die? We don't know, and can't know.

Agreed...

I choose to have an opinion on the subject, based on my experience of the world and science

We don't know, and can't know. World experience and science say nothing about the subject.

and my moral sensibilities of how the universe ought to work.

And this criteria would not be considered reliable for anything else. Anything on which the reliablility could be checked.

I often make guesses about everyday occurrences that are nothing more than my best guess given the information I have to work with. I could certainly be wrong, but I have to have a certain amount of faith that my opinion is true, or everything would be at a standstill. Whenever evidence comes along to refute it, I revise my opinion. Just because I have faith in the conclusions I have drawn does not mean I am unwilling to reconsider.

What you're describing is an educated guess. An educated guess is based on past experience. There is no past experience on which to base a belief about what happens when we die.

Originally Posted by classicman

HM - you seem to have such a negative opinion of the word. It surprises me.

Here, from wiki:
"Believing a certain variable will act or has the potential to act a specific way despite the potential influence and probability of known or unknown change.

* To have faith that one's spouse will keep a promise or commitment.
* To have faith that the world will someday be peaceful.
* To have faith that a person will pay you back.
* To have faith that you will be okay despite adversity.
* To have faith in one's full dependence on the will of supernatural forces or deities."

Within certain contexts faith is a great thing - applied or used inappropriately it can be potentially very bad.

If your wife has been true in the past, just like a ball falls to the ground gives you president for "faith" that gravity will be there when you need it, is evidence that your belief that she may continue that behavior is not unfounded. Not faith in the true sense. Also, if you ask most rational people they will tell you it is not a pure, knowable, issue. They know their spouse could cheat, but is more likely not to if they both work toward the best marriage... not faith.

I don't know anyone that thinks the world will be completely peaceful. Nor do I know two people that can agree on the same definition on peaceful. Yeah, faith and illogical to buy.

If they have paid you back in the past, not faith, if you have any evidence of their character, not faith.

Ok despite adversity... I don't even know what this means.

The last one is faith and there is no rational reason to buy anything supernatural, to date. Having faith in them is neither good or bad, it does nothing because there is nothing there to answer your faith that we know of and no evidence that it does anything at all. No one has been healed or helped in any way. Waste of energy.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

We don't know, and can't know. World experience and science say nothing about the subject.

Quote:
and my moral sensibilities of how the universe ought to work.

And this criteria would not be considered reliable for anything else. Anything on which the reliablility could be checked.

I know. It's unreliable. And yet I'm egotistical enough to believe it anyway. That's why it gets its own word, "faith," instead of being just like everything else. Feel free to substitute "ego" for "faith" in this whole conversation, it won't bother me--I think ego can be a good thing too. And I maintain that in the forms I have been describing, faith does not hurt anyone else, would not affect my policy decisions if I were an elected official, and is not, as queequeger initially asserted, a "bad thing."

[Ibby]

the difference between faith and science is one of understanding.

if you drop a ball a thousand times and, every time you drop it, it falls to the floor, as a result of gravity...
then faith would be the assumption that the ball always falls
wheras science says, the ball will always move towards the most massive object whose field of gravity reaches the ball.


this example doesn't work in every case, but in the real world, faith can often be explained just a lack of understanding.
However, theists have an entirely different kind of faith. Faith in a deity is a different kind of faith, to this, entirely. It is baseless and illogical - and still can't be absolutely said to be wrong by anyone who isn't a dick.