Perspective on the US from an expat working in China

[Cicero]

Thanks for cureing my world-view. Yes, the Chinese are busy!!
Hey don't they have an execution van rolling through town now? And there is always this.....

Graphic Photo: Do not look if sensitive.










So yea...whatever. Yes I've been to China...and I loved it. Hong Kong is awesome...

But they also kill people for organs, and are on many human rights watch lists for an extraordinary amount of rapes and killings. Americans are lazy...yes...thank you for expounding on a cliche..but I have also known some Chinese to be ___ ____, and _____.

I like that you are having new experiences in a new place and seem very enthused....but flooding the United States with the "more qualified", I don't think is the answer we are looking for here. I also don't think the answer is to work to get on top of your game for 70 plus hours a week. Maybe Americans don't want to be machines? Maybe they take alot more time out from work for their family. Maybe their wives (like me) worry when they become exhausted black-eyed workaholics because here they (wives) are allowed to complain?

Maybe we watch for signs of an on-coming heart-attack?


Screw it...you seem bent on your view, and I agree with you about education and media, but they certainly are not a model for how to run the United States. And moving masses of skilled workers here is a ridiculous idea, as we already have a melting pot in effect. Maybe not melted with the members you would have but who decides, you? Maybe the people that infused date rape drugs with our kids beads? Maybe those talented guys? Yea...the chinese are smart and quick, I envy that...but don't try to bullshit me about motives.

Regards,
Your average lazy American

[lookout123]

i don't care to argue any of you points as there is some validity to each. i will, however, share a little thought that one of my analysts dropped on me a while back.

do you remember in 1998 and 1999 and everyone was convinced that the economy had changed and we were breaking new ground? profits and products didn't matter as much and ideas and potential? upward and onward was inevitable? do you remember how everyone was excited about the potential for careers and companies focussed exclusively on technology? Do you remember how much more excited and enthusiastic as tech jobs started paying more and more in the buildup to January 1st, 2000?

What happened on January 2nd? A lot of the enthrallment with that world and paradigm dissolved because reality had set back in. a new year had come and the world didn't end. tech jobs were just that - tech jobs. many of the guys who had uprooted their families and bet the farm on the potential of the field were devastated when suddenly they weren't so highly valued in the market place. the big important day had come and gone and it left us with only reality. guys who used to make $25/hour who then got $125/hour were suddenly back to $35/hour. companies folded. careers and families disrupted.

Anyway, there has been an awful lot of money flooding into chinese investments. institutional money. emerging markets funds. a lot of you in your 401K's. Look at the number of regional/sector funds and ETF's have popped up. China is full of growth, growth, growth. everything is getting prettier and prettier.

I wonder is there some reason that the Chinese government might want to polish the exterior? Is there some event set to take place in the near future? Is there some date down the road that is going to center the world's attention on China? Do you think all of the investment will continue well past such and important time period?

I can tell you this - and i don't bank on predictions, but i ca promise you that i will be watching the flow of institutional money in that region starting in March of '08.

[slang]

Originally Posted by lookout123

...I wonder is there some reason that the Chinese government might want to polish the exterior? Is there some event set to take place in the near future? .

Something other than the 2008 Olympics?

The Chinese government sees the games as a chance for China to highlight its economic rise and emergence as a world power

[Riddil]

Heh, I knew it'd happen eventually, someone would accuse me of being a "China-lover", and accuse me of hating America. Funny, because it's the farthest thing from the truth. Trust me... wait til you read my write-up analyzing life in China.

My original post in this thread wasn't any commentary about life in China, it was totally about the US. Yeah, China has problems. MANY more problems than the US. But that doesn't mean they're not a threat.

And Slang, on your come-back post, I 100% agree with you. There's nothing we can do to stop the Chinese from their own push to get ahead, but we CAN change the game to make sure we stay ahead. Good point, well said.

ZenGum... EXCELLENT point about complacency. I'm actually getting to that point in life myself. I'm tired of the long days and big demands at work, and I'm contemplating shifting to a lower position to actually get to spend more time with my family, even if it means scaling back on lifestyle.

The interesting side-effect of that though... is if culturally we all say, "well, I guess we've accumulated enough", then we may get left behind in the future. I've never seen this theory anywhere else, but, here goes my brand new concept on why America had such a meteoric rise...

In Europe in the 1800's people felt they pretty much "had it good enough". Democracy was spreading, rampant wars were subsiding, the grip of the church was lessening, illness was less of a factor...

And the result was they became complacent. Life was pretty well balanced, they COULD do a little more work to get more out of life, but what was the point?

And then the US bounced along, sat on top of some pretty fantastical innovations in the 1900s, and launched to the head of the class. You even look at Europe... in the 1900s they had substantial manufacturing capabilities, even beyond what the US had. Yet it was still the grand ol' USofA that became #1, even though they had the added challenge of being so far away from Europe making it tougher to import / export goods. If, at the same time, any European culture would have had the same level of raw materials resources and the same culture of hard-work to get ahead, then maybe that country would be the sole world power today. But it didn't happen (Germany threatened, but failed), so today it's only the US, all because of two things: innovation, and hard-work mentality.

It's an interesting theory to consider... the main new idea in there for me is the point about a culture "accepting their position in life", and not pushing on for more-more-more. And in turn, that becomes the factor that puts them at the biggest disadvantage when suddenly you find yourself in the future, and what once was considered a good salary isn't even enough to buy you a vacation on Venus, or a even get you a decent clone-body to transplant your brain.

Interesting stuff.

[slang]

There are a few questions that I have for both you and ZG. This question came to me today after talking with some of the neighbors.


Zen and Riddil:

Do people there ( each respective location ).....

* - Seem to want to be friends, if only for the novelty of having a foreign pal and what doors that might open for them both in country and what I may be able to do for them in your country

* - Seem to sincerely want to be friends and offer their attention just as they would to anyone else there.

* - Seem genuinely friendly but don't approach me outside of my professional environment. They don't invite me "out for beers" ( or rice or whatever )

* - Seem wholely uninterested in me as person but are very interested in what I'm doing here.

* - Seem hostile in some way but without any type of personal gaff or confrontation initiating that hostility. They don't like _____'s and I am one of them.


My circumstances here in the Philippines are a bit different than both of yours. I've essentially set up home here and work long and hard in the US for 6 or so months and then come back here. Back and forth I go.

Most of the people that have access to me are family and people in this neihborhood. They are all pinoys ( with 2 exceptions, Chinese nationals ) and everyone is very curious to know why I'm here. This is not the tourist area. White people don't come here. It's not clean and comfortable.

Many people here like to chat with me and I'm more than happy to do this. Many also like to sing with the videokey ( which I personally don't like but often do anyway ).

Some people are very defensive when we first meet because they expect me to challenge them in some way or domineer over them. It's not long that they even out and just relax around me. At that point we can either find things in common that we like and spend time together or not. Just like anyone else on the planet I suppose.

Sure, there are those that ask a lot of very personal money questions, either joking or seriously, and they generally stop coming around because I'm not a rich man, not an important man in the US and am truly here to relax and learn about this place. Once they see that I'm not pounding my chest telling them how rich and important that I am, they assume that I can't or wont make their dreams come true, whatever they may be.

For the most part though, with very few exceptions, the people here are extremely friendly and helpful. There is no pressure here for me though and I'm the world's nicest guy.

So I'm curious as to what your experiences have been, ZenGum and Riddil. I'm guessing that they are not at all like mine here in Manila but I'll allow you to tell as much or little as you wish.

[Ibby]

cough cough dont forget everyone's favorite expat minor cellarite in taiwan

[Cicero]

I like that you guys are out there living my little dream of living in Asia....I like how this is panning out for you all, being successful in another country. Really, that is sincere....



Riddil- You did not address the issues I have with "rolling out the red carpet" for immigrants of Eastern descent. Which is clearly what your post was about. You clearly have issues with the Mexican Nationals not being as skilled as people in the East? Is this what you are saying? I see things differently, as I think the world is too interested in greed and production for production's sake. You would have people flood into this country to take the jobs from Americans because we're "lazy". We are more expensive is the sole issue here. We hold ourselves up to a quality of life and standard for us and our families. This is why the jobs have been taken to other countries. Either because the company is doing something that would be illegal on American soil- or the labor is cheap. (or any combination thereof) From a corporate standpoint, this is why we don't roll out the carpet for Easterner's to come to this country...(not that this doesn't happen at all) They would be the same cost as Americans, which is what Corporate is trying to evade by using foreigners in other countries. You already know this however, which is also what this is about? Do you feel like the people you are working with now are more deserving of American riches than Americans? Do you feel like this country (U.S.) needs to do "whatever it takes to get to the top"? Even if it includes an influx of people of foreign descent to come here and do our jobs for us?

Originally Posted by Riddil

China is full of people that are motivated to do whatever it takes to get to the top.

[ZenGum]

Riddil, I disagree with your account of the demise of Europe.
During the 1800s, they were not complacent and resting on their laurels. They were competing frantically with each other to dominate the continent and the world, innovating and competing as much as they could. In 100 years they seized most of Africa, South and South-East Asia, and kept shoving amongst themselves.
I believe there were two main factors in the demise of Europe. Firstly the colonies caught up the technological and organizational advantage that Europe had held. Secondly, the two world wars exhausted them. In 1914, the USA was worthy but not as powerful as Britain, or even France or Germany. By 1946 the USA was clearly the strongest. I think that pouring their national resources into destructive wars was the crucial factor in the demise of Europe.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I think that pouring their national resources into destructive wars was the crucial factor in the demise of Europe.

Hmmm, What is the US doing right now?

[slang]

Originally Posted by Ibram

cough cough dont forget everyone's favorite expat minor cellarite in taiwan

Fair enough. Do tell of your experience there.

[Riddil]

ZenGum, point taken. The whole train of thought in that post was a stream of conscious. I do think there is some validity though. It may not be due to any laziness of Europeans, but I do think it was a convergence of many factors that led to such a big disparity for what the US became.... innovation, hard-work mentality, safety from the wars, and abundant source of raw materials.

And Cicero, actually I'm not against the influx of Mexicans into the US at all. I am against the ILLEGAL influx of Mexicans. However, I think we should set up a simple registration system to make it just as easy for just as many Mexicans to come into the country. Get them tax payer numbers, and get them paying taxes. The beef I have with the current system is they come in, get paid under the table, and send all that money home. If you're working in the US, you should be paying taxes in the US.

Anyhow, I digress, my real point with immigration is that it's silly how easy we make it for uneducated illegals, and so difficult for educated professionals. I don't only mean Easterners, either. I say open up the gates and let Europeans, Africans, South Americans, whatever, let 'em come on in. We should lock out the poor Mexicans to match the difficult process for everyone else. We should clean them both up, and make it easy for people to move into the US.

And yes, "whatever it takes to stay at the top", INCLUDING bringing in foreigners to take top jobs. How many stories are there from the end of the 1800's, and beginning of the 1900's about some immigrant coming from Europe and building a massively successful company? The quality work they do makes American companies more competitive, and the companies they create give jobs to more Americans, and the income they earn is injected into the US.

Who cares if they talk with an accent? Their kids won't.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by classicman

Hmmm, What is the US doing right now?

Yep, that is what worries me.
Although at present the US is trickling, not pouring, resources into wars. WWI and II were "total war" - pretty much all of the country's resources went to it. The current situation isn't that intense yet.

Nevertheless, while the US and friends are off chasing car-bombers in the Middle-East, and China and Russia are conserving their strength and making friends.

[Riddil]

Originally Posted by slang

There are a few questions that I have for both you and ZG. This question came to me today after talking with some of the neighbors.

Acutally, I just put up a (stupidly long) post about my perspective of life in China. Many questions may be answered indirectly there. But that post is more a life-in-general posting, and not so much a personal impression, so I'll try to answer as best I can here....

I actually clipped out your specific questions, because the answers are all so deeply affected by how I answer the first one:

Most Chinese haven't been exposed to any real-life foreigners. The reaction I get is typically stares. Shanghai is better, but move out to the suburbs and it's still awkward. Plus, they also tend to be very distrusting of foreigners in general. Overall most folks are very accepting. But since it's such an isolationist culture they lock out each other, which means they especially lock out foreigners.

By and large, they're not interested in being friends. It seems the way most Chinese friendships are built is through school. People stay in touch with their high school and University chums their whole life, and that's the predominant extent of their social circles. Bars and clubs are still seen as "evil", so most people still spend their nights either in the office or at home. Weekends about all you'll do is go to a park or KTV, but that's typically only with your immediate friends / family. It's a very secluded atmosphere. The exception is the old retired folks... they congregate in masses to dance and play mahjong and ping-pong.

However, there are a few over-motivated new businessmen that will stride across a busy street just to come up and try to strike up a conversation with me. To me it feels like they're fishing for any opportunity to make a network connection so that they find the secret to untold riches.

I'm in a similar situation to you. I actually avoided the "foreigner communities", and I live in a very common area. But NO ONE tries to make friends, or even strike up a conversation. Even when I talk in my broken Chinese with people they won't even try to answer, they'll do their best to point, or nod, but they're too (scared? ashamed? surprised?) to try to answer back directly.

And yeah, many people fully expect Americans to be loud and obnoxious. Which I count as a benefit since it means everyone always has low expectations for me, it's easy to surpass those expectations

[slang]

Originally Posted by Riddil

Most Chinese haven't been exposed to any real-life foreigners. The reaction I get is typically stares.

That makes sense.

Most everyone here has at least seen some foreigners. This country is completely different and has been a colony for much of it's history.

Only the kids stare at me.

Thanks for taking the time out to answer my questions.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by slang

Do people there ( each respective location ).....

* - Seem to want to be friends, if only for the novelty of having a foreign pal and what doors that might open for them both in country and what I may be able to do for them in your country

* - Seem to sincerely want to be friends and offer their attention just as they would to anyone else there.

* - Seem genuinely friendly but don't approach me outside of my professional environment. They don't invite me "out for beers" ( or rice or whatever )

* - Seem wholely uninterested in me as person but are very interested in what I'm doing here.

* - Seem hostile in some way but without any type of personal gaff or confrontation initiating that hostility. They don't like _____'s and I am one of them.

Of course the main answer is a mix of pretty much everything.
I haven't been here very long and haven't had a great deal of interaction with Japanese people outside of language classes, so my answers are a compound of my own experience, reports from my friends, and a few relevant books.

The first cultural rule here is politeness. It is very unusual (and therefore quite startling) to have someone be deliberately rude. People are normally very wary of saying what they really think ("honne" in Japanese) and usually just say what is polite ("tatemae"). So getting to what people really think/feel about foreigners is difficult.
There is a little bit of staring behaviour. Children and rural dwellers seldom if ever see foreigners, and so - especially the kids - look at you as a novelty. It's not hostile staring though, not a "what are you doing here, foreign devil", just a "wow, don't see too many like that". Japan is still very racially homogeneous; blond, big nosed fellows like me do stand out.
High and junior high school kids stare in a shy, endearing way. Ohhh look! how interesting, a foreigner - I dare you to talk to it ... no you do! no, you! Harro! giggles, run away...
Uni students like to act all sophisticated and international, and some urban trendies try to act like gangstas, greeting me with "yo, man" and stuff. Its hard to stop myself from laughing, especially when they spoil the gangsta image with, for example, neatly trimmed eyebrows.

Adults are usually at least polite. Some shop staff don't want to make the effort dealing with my hopeless Japanese, which seems a bit rude, but quite often strangers will strike up a conversation on trains and such. Maybe they just want to practice their English, or maybe they're just being hospitable. The novelty of a foreign pal is, i think, often a factor. Nevertheless, there can be genuine friendships, if you find the people you click with.

However, the Japanese culture is still very exclusionist. Foreigners are welcome to visit - mostly - but are not welcome to assimilate. In Hokkaido Highway BluesWill Ferguson gives many examples, including a case where the press hailed the election of a Chinese man as the head of a PTA as a great stride. He was "Chinese" ... born in Japan, father born in Japan, GRANDFATHER migrated. He only speaks Japanese. But he's still "Chinese".

There are a tiny, tiny number of ultra-nationalists, who drive black minibuses with rising sun flags and huge (but very low-fi) sound systems about the city, blaring painful old militaristic songs and political drivel. Meh, find me a country that doesn't have some like them.
But there is a much more widespread streak of more polite xenophobia and racism. Ishihara, the mayor of Tokyo, has been re-elected despite repeatedly saying things I find bloody outrageous. Some classics: preparing for the soccer world cup, he said we should build more orphanages because there would be lots of unwanted babies because of the influx of foreigners who would rape all the women. Or that if there was a big earthquake, we'd need to immediately deploy the army to shoot all the Korean Tokyoites, who would naturally begin rioting. (After the last big Tokyo earthquake in the 1930s, the Koreans behaved but were frequently lynched by Japanese mobs who accused them of poisoning the wells.) There are plenty of other examples, not just from him.

So, reviewing your choices, I'd have to be very boring and say "yes a bit" to all of them. Some people are genuinely friendly, some interested in the generic foreigner, some politely hospitable, some awkwardly shy, some politely hostile, and a very few openly hostile.
Maybe my experiences are very unrepresentative: I am only planning a limited stay, haven't learned the language, haven't built much of a social network. Most of the views here are second hand.