The Immaterial Mind

[Juniper]

A friend of mine said that she believed in the soul as existing apart from the physical body until she had full anesthesia. Then, she said, "where do you go?" I remember what that was like when I had my wisdom teeth out, it was like a chunk of time just didn't exist. You'd think that if the drugs put your body to sleep, your soul would still be around - maybe not to feel pain, but maybe to be aware at least on some level. Of course there's no one to say that it isn't aware on some level and you just don't remember it, sort of like you dream at night and don't always remember your dreams. Or if your soul existed before your were born - another fun thing to think about - you don't remember that experience either, just your current life. But then why wouldn't you remember? What would the point be in having a soul in the first place, if you didn't remember everything and somehow learn from it? Unless the learning is done on a subconscious level, like subliminal programming. Which would explain why some people are just inherently wiser and more sensible than others, independent of their IQ; perhaps they are "old souls." GAH. Shove me in the shallow water before I get too deep.

Yeah, I think about this stuff.

My philosophy professor would just draw a payoff matrix. Like Pascal's Wager.

[sugarpop]

I was in a that drousy state between sleep and wakefulness, when all of a sudden I was above the couch looking down at my body. I had attempted to do it before on my own, but never had been able to do it. When it happened, it was cool but it also sort of freaked me out, and I rushed back into my body. It was a very weird experience. I wish I could do it again. I have known people who claimed they could do it whenever they wanted. I have no reason to doubt them.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Juniper

A friend of mine said that she believed in the soul as existing apart from the physical body until she had full anesthesia. Then, she said, "where do you go?" I remember what that was like when I had my wisdom teeth out, it was like a chunk of time just didn't exist. You'd think that if the drugs put your body to sleep, your soul would still be around - maybe not to feel pain, but maybe to be aware at least on some level. Of course there's no one to say that it isn't aware on some level and you just don't remember it, sort of like you dream at night and don't always remember your dreams. Or if your soul existed before your were born - another fun thing to think about - you don't remember that experience either, just your current life. But then why wouldn't you remember? What would the point be in having a soul in the first place, if you didn't remember everything and somehow learn from it? Unless the learning is done on a subconscious level, like subliminal programming. Which would explain why some people are just inherently wiser and more sensible than others, independent of their IQ; perhaps they are "old souls." GAH. Shove me in the shallow water before I get too deep.

Yeah, I think about this stuff.

My philosophy professor would just draw a payoff matrix. Like Pascal's Wager.

Juniper, a lot of children remember past lives, but they are taught to forget them, that they aren't real, that they are just dreams or something. But I know a couple of people who have visited places around the world, places they have never been or seen, and when they got there, they knew exactly where everything was. it wasn't deja vu, they knew things on an intimate level, things they would have no way of knowing. One of those people is a witch, the other is a skeptical Christian. I know a lot of people think I'm kinda nutty because of some of my beliefs, it kinda goes with the territory and I'm used to it by now, but I really do believe there is more to this world than people can imagine, much more.

Once I dreamt about some people I had never met. Two weeks later, I met them, and the dream I had came true, exactly as I dreamed it. I was 13 at the time.

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I was in a that drousy state between sleep and wakefulness...

You know, I don't base my philosophical beliefs on my thinking when I am as close to being unconscious as possible. Personally I think that if you took someone and got them to drink until they were completely smashed, and just before they passed out took a snapshot of their metaphysical outlook on life, having them follow that stance for the rest of their lives is a poor idea. But hey, if you want to live as though the world conformed to your dreamland fantasies that is your prerogative.

[sugarpop]

OK. Neither do I. But I have extensive experience with trance states, and I mean while NOT using any kind of mind-altering substances. If you've never experienced anything like that, then respectfully, you can't really speak with an open mind about it. How can you? You can't, because you don't know. All you can do is draw on YOUR experiences and knowledge. I'm not trying to tell you what to believe or think, so I would appreciate a little respect in return.

And ftr, I am not discounting scientific explanations of my experiences. I am just saying, I believe there is more to the world than what science can tell us, at this time. I believe science and mysticism are intimately linked. Mysticism, as I am talking about it, is all about energy. Science is all about energy. Physics and mysticism are thought now by many scientists to be closely related.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I was in a that drousy state between sleep and wakefulness, when all of a sudden I was above the couch looking down at my body. I had attempted to do it before on my own, but never had been able to do it. When it happened, it was cool but it also sort of freaked me out, and I rushed back into my body. It was a very weird experience. I wish I could do it again. I have known people who claimed they could do it whenever they wanted. I have no reason to doubt them.

I forget what that is called, astro-something.

Could be a lot of things though.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Once I dreamt about some people I had never met. Two weeks later, I met them, and the dream I had came true, exactly as I dreamed it. I was 13 at the time.

Epilepsy runs in my family, and since puberty I have had partial temporal lobe seizures on a fairly regular basis. These seizures have no physical symptoms (i.e. muscle spasms)--instead the chief symptom is the most intense, convincing deja vu you could ever imagine. It is the memory of the dream which is false, caused by rampant electrical signals in the brain. I've seen it myself on the EEG printouts.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I forget what that is called, astro-something.

Astral projection.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Astral projection.

Thank you.

[skysidhe]

I'm a immaterial girl.

[Juniper]

I've spent a fair amount of time reading and thinking about all that mystical hooha, and my current point of view is close to what clod said, that we can convince ourselves of some pretty amazing stuff. As much fun as it is to believe in dreams, past lives, astral projection, deja vu, etc., I require proof.

Now, if someone could PROVE they "remembered" something despite never having been there in this life, I might believe it. Say, there's some secret cache hidden behind a brick in the home where that person lived in a past life, so he hops on a plane from Texas to some little town in France and digs it up - saying exactly what was in the box before moving the brick -- ta-da! (And a really cool story idea, too.) But just to pop over and say "gosh, this looks so familiar!" Nope.

The trouble with memories is that we often can't remember how we acquired them. I may have read a book 20 years ago about something, then come into contact with it tomorrow and since I couldn't remember reading the book, believe I've *been there.*

My philosophy teacher spoke of a similar example in lecture last week. He said he was driving in the car with his wife, and suddenly it popped into his head to say "whatever happened to..." some celebrity that had dropped off the radar for a dozen years or so. And the next day he read in the newspaper that she had died. Ooh, was that some kind of psychic event he had? No, probably he heard a little blurb on the news but wasn't paying attention enough for it to register consciously. He also spoke of a really vivid childhood memory he had shared with lots of people, then his father heard his story and confirmed that it never happened that way, it was completely impossible. Memories are not trustworthy things.

[DanaC]

Synchronicity.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I'll have to do some digging for the story, Sugar, but I read recently about a series of experiments in which the experience of leaving the body was recreated. I'm not sure if they were using chemical or electrical stimulation of the relevant brain area, but apparently it was a very strange experience for the subjects.

Chemical always seemed to work well for me in the past.

[Pie]

There's a place in the brain that can be magnetically stimulated to create a feeling of 'oneness with the universe'. See here.

For that wonderful, out of body sensation, see here.

There is no spoon.

[Happy Monkey]

Some research.