Afghanistan

[infinite monkey]

I thought they were going to start doing better at assessing some of the bonker yo-yo's hanging around in the service.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

I thought they were going to start doing better at assessing some of the bonker yo-yo's hanging around in the service.

I am constantly reminding people that the all voluntary service is nothing more than a slice of society. We can't eliminate all the crazies.

[infinite monkey]

No, no more than we can predict who might come in here and shoot the place up. But we're not a matter of national security.

Maybe 4 tours is too much? Why would someone volunteer for 4 tours? Is that normal? I'm asking, because I really don't know. Wouldn't someone say "you know, you've already done 3 tours and not only are we concerned about burn-out we're concerned about why you keep wanting to go back."

Do they get more money each tour? Are there not opportunities in other capacities? Again, I'm asking, because I don't know.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by fargon

Give that soldier to the Afghans and let them try him.

That would only serve as punishment. As a deterrent to others, turn his children over to the Afghans as part of a cultural exchange program.

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

... Why would someone volunteer for 4 tours? ... Do they get more money each tour? Are there not opportunities in other capacities? ...

Yes, some repeatedly volunteer because they do get more money. Some repeatedly volunteer to get away from other domestic issues like a troubled marriage. There are other opportunities; but, as with civilian jobs the person may not be qualified and/or may not be released from their current position due to a shortage of replacements. A shortage of people to fill those positions is why they don't scrutinize repeat volunteers too carefully in the first place.

[infinite monkey]

Thanks sexobon.

Yeah, that is what concerns me. In matters as important as this I think a bit more oversight is in order. Like, Mr Tour Number Four 'Cause His Wife Shut the Door could probably benefit from some extra counseling.

So it seems they're doing nothing to better assess the bonker yo-yos, just throw them back in and hope for the best.

Who runs the services, an MBA?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I am constantly reminding people that the all voluntary service is nothing more than a slice of society. We can't eliminate all the crazies.

Yes, but it seems Lewis-McChord got more than their share.

[regular.joe]

That would lead me to believe there have been problems with internal leadership and unit culture driven by personalities. For instance there are many, many guys in my work area who love to sport "infidel" stickers, patches etc...then wear this paraphernalia around on deployment in front of our local hosts. Most of them have an attitude of "fuck the muj" and really could care less about the end state where we are deployed. One of our CSMs banned the patches/stickers and made a clear statement of what is acceptable in deportment and behavior. If this kind of action is not taken by our leadership then the troops think that anything is o.k.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

They are also pleading a brain-damaging injury. Details whenever, I guess.

[classicman]

Doesn't really matter UG. The details on his TBI from a rollover accident in Iraq in 2008 have been out.

[Lamplighter]

LA Times
3/15/12

Taliban suspends U.S. talks as Karzai demands NATO troop pullback

The Taliban movement announced Thursday that it was suspending dialogue
with the United States, and President Hamid Karzai demanded that NATO troops pull back
to major bases and accelerate Afghan responsibility for safeguarding the country.

The Taliban statement, posted on its website and emailed to journalists,
represented a major blow to hopes for a negotiated end to the 10-year war.

The group's leadership blamed a U.S. representative for presenting conditions
that were "unacceptable" and "in contradiction with earlier agreed-upon points."
It did not specify what those conditions were, but said the movement was
"compelled to suspend all dialogue with the Americans."
<snip>

Karzai's demand for a retreat to major bases and an end to operations
in rural areas appeared to be in response to Sunday's shooting rampage,
which took place in two tiny villages not far from a U.S.-run base in Kandahar province.
Karzai's office said he had conveyed the demand to visiting Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta.

He also called for moving forward by a year -- to the end of 2013 -- the target date
for Afghan forces to take responsibility for safeguarding the country.

[tw]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

That would lead me to believe there have been problems with internal leadership and unit culture driven by personalities.

Once it became obvious even to the soldiers that the war was lost, then these same problems existed in Vietnam. Ie My Lai massacre.

Most famous massacres were first covered up by the brass. My Lai in Nam. Haditha in Iraq. Even Bradley Manning started due to a coverup of murder. We can easily conclude many more such atrocities existed and were successfully covered up.

Worse, in every case, the murderer was exonerated. In My Lai, those who tried to stop it were ignored or disparaged for multiple decades. Only recently honored for their bravery.

One can expect such murders by learning from a similar situation in Nam. Where the American army had already been defeated. But the brass was not willing to admit it.

BTW, that similarity was a reason for so much conflict between Karzai and a very informed Richard Holbrook.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

Maybe 4 tours is too much? Why would someone volunteer for 4 tours? Is that normal? I'm asking, because I really don't know.

You volunteer to join the military; you non't necessarily volunteer to do everything they have you do.

I don't know whether this guy in particular volunteered for this tour, but I remember lots of people being called up for extra tours for Iraq, past what a "standard" alotment was.

With the drawdown in Iraq, maybe we have enough forces that people with several tours under their belt already only go if they volunteer, though.

[infinite monkey]

Yes, which makes me wonder again about the other questions.

I've heard from friends in the service that they are really paying a lot more attention to the mental health of our servicepeople (which is a good thing: I can't imagine not being affected by the things they do, and I value them for their service.)

So if this is true I think a couple things may not be happening that should be, or are not happening enough, or...just like in anything, someone fell through the cracks.

1) Extra 'allotments' shouldn't happen (within reason.) I mean, 4 tours? Eh, we need warm bodies. Joe Schmoe just got back, let's send him in again.
2) If someone is volunteering for an awful lot of extra 'allotments' some assessment needs to happen.

I think we're doing a better job of understanding the trauma of combat. At least, I've seen organizations devoted to getting veterans, especially veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, together. That they are 'not alone.' That even these tough brave people are human.

One of my friends did a tour in Iraq and a tour in Afghanistan. This guy is straight up the epitome of a Marine (great guy.) But his g-friend tells me he does have issues resulting from his experiences.

So either way, I'm skeptical that 'better' is being done.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

You volunteer to join the military; you non't necessarily volunteer to do everything they have you do.

Happy, I know I've been a dick and an arrogant ass lately. I am not coming from that space right now. I just really need to let you know that we do indeed volunteer to do everything asked of us when we join the military. Man, speaking as a former Drill Sergeant, it takes all of the nine weeks of Basic Training to get this idea out of the heads of new soldiers.

[ZenGum]

Reg Joe, I think you and HM are actually in agreement, witha slight miscommunication.

When the recruit volunteers, they are volunteering for whatever the military will subsequently require of them. (your point).

When the big wigs decide to invade somewhere, they do not go amongst the troops and say, "okay, who wants to volunteer for the invasion of Fubaristan?" The initial act of volunteering for the military is deemed to cover that already (HM's point) and if the powers decide to send you, they send you.

I believe this is not quite right, and that service-people can and do put themselves forward of additional tours if they feel up to it. This might count as "additional volunteering".

Is this right?

Anyway, back to the recent incident. What was the guy's supervising officer up to? His base commander? Medical staff? Even his buddies? Did no one notice any warning signs that he was losing it? IMHO, that is where the responsibility lies.