What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Presently, I am seeing families torn apart, and people fleeing from violence. I am seeing the complex, and completely intertwined relationships--business, economic, social, and familial that form across the border. I don't particularly want illegal aliens here, but I decry the simplistic approach of just "securing the borders" or "sending them all back to where they came from."

The level of violence is almost unreal... must be terrifying.
Help me understand what is tearing families apart. Is there anything stopping people from crossing the border as frequently as they want? I understand it's gotta be inconvenient*, but it's not like it's new or anything.... that border has been there longer than most of the people crossing it have been alive.

I don't particularly want illegal aliens here either... it's not so much the 'undocumented workers' I have a problem with, it's the violent gang-bangers from mexico and central america that have no intention of being anything but a danger to the rest of us that really bug me... But at the same time, I think that if the border was actually secure I would have no problem offering amnesty to every illegal alien in the country that goes and gets signed up with Social Security immediately. But we can't have what's going on now, with the uncontrolled border and welfare state together. The math just doesn't work - see not enough $$ to train AZ cops properly etc.

*I just watched a show about a Canadian border town, border right down the middle of town, residents having to cross several times a day. Prior to 911 they just waved to Bob at the gate, now it's a whole thing with security everywhere. Pain in the ass but they seem to have a sense of humor about it, on both sides.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Cloud

BTW, there are roadblocks between cities checking papers.

Yeah, I remember a roadblock checking for illegals when we left San Diego years ago, heading north. Had to be almost 20 years ago now...

[Cloud]

it is certainly much harder now, and more harrowing to travel--in Juarez, not here. There's a lot of movement around, as people are moving their families here, or moving some of them around from outlying areas, like Fort Hancock. Certainly the violence has puts a toll on families and caused untold suffering and separations, but I'm thinking more in terms of families where the parents are here and are the breadwinners, but illegal, but their children were born here. The kids are citizens--what should they do when the parents are arrested and deported? I'm sure there are other scenarios, and I suppose some of you will simply say, well, they weren't supposed to be here at all, send them and their kids back. But back into a war zone?

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't agree that these people don't have rights, or that we should just dismiss them without considering the human viewpoint.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Flint

You're right, it would be more racially sensitive and politically correct to use the inclusive term "brown people" in this case.

No.

"The fact of the matter is, undocumented folks are literally from the four corners of the planet," says Arturo Venegas, a former Sacramento, Calif., police chief and the project director of the Law Enforcement Engagement Initiative, which opposes the Arizona measure. Illegal aliens can be blond Brits or black Jamaicans or olive-skinned Mexicans. And while this last description may apply to most of the undocumented in Arizona, it's not very helpful either.

link

[Griff]

Originally Posted by jinx

I don't particularly want illegal aliens here either... it's not so much the 'undocumented workers' I have a problem with, it's the violent gang-bangers from mexico and central america that have no intention of being anything but a danger to the rest of us that really bug me... But at the same time, I think that if the border was actually secure I would have no problem offering amnesty to every illegal alien in the country that goes and gets signed up with Social Security immediately.

The bottom line is that until we find a sensible alternative to the drug war we won't have a reasonable chance of resolving the illegal immigration issue.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Griff

The bottom line is that until we find a sensible alternative to the drug war we won't have a reasonable chance of resolving the illegal immigration issue.

Quoted for truth.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Griff

The bottom line is that until we find a sensible alternative to the drug war we won't have a reasonable chance of resolving the illegal immigration issue.

I'd love to hear one.
Personally, I'd like to see home-grown drugs (specifically pot, no one should be dying or going to jail over pot) controls relaxed, freeing up money to spend on stopping the imported poison. Asking nicely won't work unfortunately.

The various wars in central america have sent us millions of people, many trained guerilla fighters with no other skills. What are we supposed to do about this?

[Sheldonrs]

Originally Posted by jinx

...The various wars in central america have sent us millions of people, many trained guerilla fighters with no other skills. What are we supposed to do about this?

Well since they are already trained, let's give them teaching credentials and set them up in our inner city schools.
It might improve test scores.

[jinx]

Har.

[Cloud]

no one likes to think their friends and cow orkers are insensitive bigots.

I'm disappointed.

[lumberjim]

who's an insensitive bigot now?

[Cloud]

others.

[lumberjim]

Yeah, I hate others. jerks.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Assume away. Most anecdotal evidence is that illegals are the people in the service sector working for less than minimum wage, with no employer-provided benefits or employer-withheld taxes. They're the people who work long hours, since it's at low wages, mowing your lawn, washing dishes at your restaurant, emptying your septic tank, cleaning your hotel room, etc.

Cite.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Don't forget the ones that fly in.

[conspiracy]Those unemployed folks might like to make some cash building a wall between Mexico and the US of A. And I'll bet they'll do it for cheap! Wasn't that the plan when they wire terminated from their employment?[/theory]

Cite.

Interesting... Who is breaking the law - the employer who pays less than minimum wage or the employee who accepts minimum wage? I say the employer is breaking the law (surprise).

Those Damm employees. Fire those workers now and end this disparity!